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vitriol for vets?
    #19254689 -

So I'm noticing over the past few days a lot of hate directed at vets and the military. I ask, why?

i can appreciate war is not your cup of tea, or America isn't the world police, or "____" isn't our business. But why make a personal attack against a man or woman who chooses the green?

lets keep it civil and to the point, what is it about the individual soldier/marine/sailor/airman you dislike?

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19255284 -

my guess would be that they contribute to the problem by supporting the war/oversee's occupation.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19255352 -

That isn't a problem, there is no occupation and they have no say in policy.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19255394 -

they have no say but they still support it by joining the military. Just like i have no say in walmarts policies but i support them by shopping there. Really? We're not occupying Afghanistan?


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19255428 -

No, we are not occupying Afghanistan.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19255455 -

I haven't noticed any hatred toward military personnel since the Vietnam war.  Do you have any examples to cite?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19255482 -

what would you call it?


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19255704 -

What do you call our presence in Japan and Germany?

Don't get me wrong, I would walk every single one of our forces out of that shithole and let the retards kill each other until there is nobody left standing.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19255719 -

considering we don't actively blow shit up in Japan or Germany i'd say our presence is just that, a presence. Afghanistan very clearly falls into occupation territory in my mind. Of course there could be some technical caveat that makes in not. However i believe its arguing semantics at that point. While maybe not a technical occupation we are blowing shit up and killing people there on a daily basis.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I would walk every single one of our forces out of that shithole and let the retards kill each other until there is nobody left standing.


Glad we agree on that point. Let the religious freaks kill themselves in the name of virgins all day long if they want to.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19256250 -

#100!

as always, enlil, the balance to my check. Hate may have been the wrong choice, maybe disrespect, or tacit neglect? As for examples in the past two weeks I have read the following. Meat shield, underachievers, the military as a welfare recipient, and most egregious yet, a rant about refusing to pick up the costs of therapy / medication for PTSD patients.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19256299 -

psyconaught said:
considering we don't actively blow shit up in Japan or Germany i'd say our presence is just that, a presence. Afghanistan very clearly falls into occupation territory in my mind. Of course there could be some technical caveat that makes in not. However i believe its arguing semantics at that point. While maybe not a technical occupation we are blowing shit up and killing people there on a daily basis.


Our government does that here.  I think it is important to use words properly.  We are not occupying any nation on Earth.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I would walk every single one of our forces out of that shithole and let the retards kill each other until there is nobody left standing.


Glad we agree on that point. Let the religious freaks kill themselves in the name of virgins all day long if they want to.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19256395 -

Since I am the author of some of the referenced posts, I'll speak for myself and my motivations.  More specifically, I'll expand upon my opinions which led to those posts.

I don't see any reason to respect someone simply because he/she joins the military.  It's not a particularly smart or wise decision.  Further, it tells me that the person had very few options when they got out of high school.

The reason I feel this way is because people who are smart know that there are far better things that they can do with their lives than be indoctrinated into a culture where one blindly follows orders and serves a master in whatever way the master deems necessary.  This kind of culture is a good fit for those who lack both the ability and the desire to choose their own direction in life and actively move toward it.  The military makes those decisions for a recruit.

There are certainly people who join the military because they are exceptionally well suited for it, and they are the exception.  These are the people who become top tacticians.  Most people who join, however, are only there because they were too stupid or too foolish to think of anything better to do with whatever talents they possess.

I don't hate people in the military at all.  I find that most people who join do so for quite sincere reasons, however stupid and poorly thought out those reasons may be.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19256414 -

That sounds kind of like the bar.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19256424 -

Not any bar I've been to.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19256658 -

ORLY?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19256688 -

YARLY!


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19256712 -

Quote:
Further, it tells me that the person had very few options when they got out of high school.



Spoken like a person who doesn't know shit about people in the military.

In 22 years of  service and in every unit I serviced in the vast majority of people where there because they wanted to be there. Especially later in the reserves I served with highly successful people outside the military who felt they owed the country their service.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19256734 -

There are many ways to serve one's country.  If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19257142 -

Enlil said:
There are many ways to serve one's country.  If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.


One could make the same statement about all of Congress and 99% of lawyers


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19257163 -

Of course, but I don't know any lawyers who claim that they're doing it to "serve their country".


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19257253 -

ORLY?  What do you think most of Congress is?  My next door neighbor would zoom that shit, too.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19257260 -

Most of Congress isn't lawyers, and most lawyers aren't in Congress.  In any case, I don't know anyone in Congress either.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19257312 -

Most of Congress isn't lawyers?  Are you sure?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19257316 -

Yes.  The number hovers around 200ish.  It's always less than 50% though.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261267 -

Quote:
If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.


You have to be one of the most ungrateful pieces of SHIT I have ever come across. There are service man and women that have had 5 or more deployments to those fucking nasty sandboxes and it ain't for the money and no amount of education benefits worth what they have to go thorough. These men and women come back broken and you want to tell them to go fuck themselves and throw them onto some scrap heap.

You have just confirmed for me why people think lawyer are the LOWEST FUCKING form of humanity.

GO FUCK YOURSELF Enlil and I hope there is a HELL so you can rot in it.

Sweeper54 sitting here welcoming the pending ban for this rant.

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19261313 -

What, exactly, should I be grateful for?  Soldiers in a foreign land killing people and inspiring the next generation of terrorists?  Do you really think we're safer because of the military actions of this century?  Do you really think I have anything at all to be grateful about for them?

If you do, you're seriously deluded.

P.S.  I've never advocated "throwing them on a scrap heap" or cutting benefits to them.  They should get what is coming to them.  I just don't respect them just because they joined the military.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261372 -

I don't think they should be there and it's not their fault they are there. It's the selfless sacrifice that service member to endure that separates them form civilian oxygen thief's. They are paying their debt to this country, and this country is not paying their debt to them.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19261411 -

I agree that vets should get better medical care for injuries suffered in the line of duty. 

That still doesn't make them worthy of respect for joining the military.

And it is their fault that they are there...They knew we were at war when they signed up.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261546 -

Gotta agree with Enlil. I have a couple of American friends in the military. They wanted to join to learn some cool skills and I respect them having those skills, I wish I had them.

That being said, they were both aware that US foreign military policy hasn't been super ethical over the last few decades and that they'd essentially be used by war profiteers.

The CIA released a report stating that the Iraq war and the US reliance on drones has actually made Americans less safe so it seems they were right.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261582 -

Not for nothing but as a general rule I have more respect for anybody who got am honorable discharge than I do for anybody who passed the bar.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19261604 -

Of that, I've no doubt.  Fortunately, your respect isn't something for which most people strive.  And what is your obsession with the bar?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19261706 -

sweeper54 said:
Quote:
If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.


You have to be one of the most ungrateful pieces of SHIT I have ever come across. There are service man and women that have had 5 or more deployments to those fucking nasty sandboxes and it ain't for the money and no amount of education benefits worth what they have to go thorough. These men and women come back broken and you want to tell them to go fuck themselves and throw them onto some scrap heap.

You have just confirmed for me why people think lawyer are the LOWEST FUCKING form of humanity.

GO FUCK YOURSELF Enlil and I hope there is a HELL so you can rot in it.

Sweeper54 sitting here welcoming the pending ban for this rant.

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!



Dude its their own fault for being stupif and going to war for heinous criminals and lies.

No dude.  The soldiers are asdholes for being uneducated braindead killers for an evil empire..  fuck em.

.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19261721 -

sweeper54 said:
I don't think they should be there and it's not their fault they are there. It's the selfless sacrifice that service member to endure that separates them form civilian oxygen thief's. They are paying their debt to this country, and this country is not paying their debt to them.


but it is their fault.  Thecreal heroicvthing to do is disobey orders that are immoral and wrong.

If you do not you deserve no respect youvdeserve scorn.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261735 -

Quote:
There are many ways to serve one's country.  If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.



Not much besides their life . Or maybe a foot or an arm . If someone is willing to give their life for me and  my country , I don't really feel like I should expect more or look down on and disrespect someone if they don't want or can't offer society more than that . That's good enough , for me.  How could you possibly offer something more valuable than that?
    I know why you should be grateful. If it  we're not for these people volunteering to do this job our govt would probably force you to do it. Or perhaps your kids. Like allot of countrys do. Like the country my wife came from . When u turn 18 there your in military for 2 years . Just the way it is.
  So next time you see a service member , just think, that could be me , against my will.


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My 3 year old cyan patchhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17135850

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20937710


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psilynut]
    #19261751 -

Quote:
If someone is willing to give their life for me and  my country


bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261764 -

Enlil said:
Of that, I've no doubt.  Fortunately, your respect isn't something for which most people strive.  And what is your obsession with the bar?



Obsession?  I find most attorneys to be loathsome self-dealers.  Same goes for journalists.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19261776 -

You're the one that keeps bringing it up, zappy...I was just wondering why.

And to Psilynut:  Their sacrifices in Iraq and Afghanistan are not for me or anyone I know.  They are for politicians and power brokers.  If they really wanted to give something, why not donate a kidney or a piece of their livers....at least that way, someone truly needy would be helped.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261790 -

In this case it was because YOU are a lawyer and are disparaging military people.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19261797 -

Oh...that's just silly.  I never claimed that all lawyers are smart or honorable.  I never claimed that someone deserves respect because they passed this test or have that degree.  That's kinda my whole point here.

People don't deserve respect because of the choice to become soldiers anymore than they deserve respect for becoming welders, or contractors...People deserve respect based on what they individually do.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19261831 -

I think the sacrifice soldiers make is different from run of the mill jobs you get paid for.  I also made it clear that an honorable discharge is required.  You personally may not think that lawyers deserve more respect than anybody else but the law sure does.  The law that was written by lawyers.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19261834 -

Shins said:
sweeper54 said:
I don't think they should be there and it's not their fault they are there. It's the selfless sacrifice that service member to endure that separates them form civilian oxygen thief's. They are paying their debt to this country, and this country is not paying their debt to them.


but it is their fault.  Thecreal heroicvthing to do is disobey orders that are immoral and wrong.

If you do not you deserve no respect youvdeserve scorn.



DUDE went you straighten out try this reply again.

Your another asshole who doesn't know squat about why people join the military.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19261881 -

psyconaught said:
Quote:
If someone is willing to give their life for me and  my country


bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.


I agree with you, one would have to pretty fucking stupid to believe lil'bushies wars had anything to do with freedom or safety, but that has NOTHING to do with serving your country in the military and IF you had served you'd know that.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psilynut]
    #19261906 -

psilynut said:
Quote:
    I know why you should be grateful. If it  we're not for these people volunteering to do this job our govt would probably force you to do it.


Yeah, but when the government forces people to do it, suddenly people care if their wars are unethical. Remember Vietnam? The draft killed it.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19262028 -

Quote:
I agree with you, one would have to pretty fucking stupid to believe lil'bushies wars had anything to do with freedom or safety, but that has NOTHING to do with serving your country in the military and IF you had served you'd know that.


Did I say anything about bushes wars ? Please quote me on that cause what I said had nothing to do with that .


Quote:
bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.



Your delusional if you think what I said has anything to do with wats going on now. Or bush. It doesn't . Serving in the military is still a job that needs to be done even when were not at war. Your still saying Im willing to give my life , in case my country needs me , I'm even willing to give it for the idiots who are too ignorant to see it and appreciate it .


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My 3 year old cyan patchhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17135850

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20937710


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psilynut]
    #19262732 -

I must say gentleman I am quite surprised at the outcome of my post. I admit when I started this my attitude was cynical, but i am glad i was wrong on this one. No suprise it went off but in a good way like going out for McDonalds,getting lost and finding an Arby's.

excelsior

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19264129 -

sweeper54 said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
If someone is willing to give their life for me and  my country


bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.


I agree with you, one would have to pretty fucking stupid to believe lil'bushies wars had anything to do with freedom or safety, but that has NOTHING to do with serving your country in the military and IF you had served you'd know that.



You're delusional if you think they are serving their country.

The sentiment might be there ill give you thst but in reality soldiers today are doing more harm than good to the country.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins] * 1
    #19264446 -

With a record number of peoples on some sort of government assistance, and throngs of underachieving unemployed I'm eager to read how the military with its fixed budget, limited roll and no say in policy is doing more harm than good.

set your phasers to dunce, because this is going to be brilliant.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19264467 -

First, the military is doing little or no good, so it doesn't take much for it to be doing more harm than good.

Second, every time someone in a foreign land is killed by our military, several people lose a father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, or friend.  Those people get hurt and then angry.  Some of those people get angry enough to do something about it later.  We are creating the next generation of America-hating terrorists.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19264557 -

Quote:
Second, every time someone in a foreign land is killed by our military, several people lose a father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, or friend.  Those people get hurt and then angry.  Some of those people get angry enough to do something about it later.


So we should allow experienced terrorists to continue killing folks on the off chance that killing them might inspire some n00b to attempt to emulate their exploits? Ninja, please!

Quote:
We are creating the next generation of America-hating terrorists.


Assumes facts not in evidence.

There will always be Islamist terrorists who genuinely believe their mission in life is to kill infidels, regardless of what America does. To believe otherwise is to exhibit willful ignorance. They don't kill us because of what we do, but because of what we are: infidels.


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19264563 -

There is a lot of real estate between invading other countries (particularly ones wholly unrelated to terrorist attacks on America) and just "allow[ing] experienced terrorists to continue killing folks"

And as for your second point...I don't see a whole lot of terrorist bombings happening in China...aren't they infidels, too?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264631 -

Enlil said:
And as for your second point...I don't see a whole lot of terrorist bombings happening in China...aren't they infidels, too?


I suspect you'd not hear about terrorist bombings in China even if there are.

The rulers can't appear weak.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19264639 -

I had to go look.

Quote:
While terrorism in China does not get the same international attention as pollution, economic growth or other development-related problems, the country has experienced a steady stream of terrorist incidents and violent riots in recent years, totaling nearly 30 incidents in the past decade.


http://qz.com/144099/bombing-at-provincial-communist-party-hq-adds-to-chinas-long-list-of-violent-attacks/

Note that I've never heard of qz.com before and have no knowledge of their accuracy.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19264644 -

Well what do you know... the religion of peace.

Quote:
Islamist group claims responsibility for attack on China's Tiananmen Square


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/islamist-china-tiananmen-beijing-attack


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19264651 -

It's good to know that the Chinese get to have some fun, too.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264669 -

The military can't do anything without a go ahead from a civilian democratically elected official. Whatever populace dissent or hadji vendetta lands at their feet. Not the military.

as for china no hadj would dare step out of line, while I like to think America can kick ass and take names it can't do it like we used to. We show restraint, sometimes. It also doesn't help when we meat shields are deployed with one hand tied behind our back.

now china can do it like we used to with all the tenacity of a secular communist superpower. Heartless totalitarian have a way of making sure there is no loose ends. If China were to step up and solve their radical Islamic infestation it would be a fucking slaughter. Stalin,Hitler,Mao and Pol Pot would look like alter boys by comparison.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19264713 -

Your argument is equivalent to an "I was just following orders" defense.  People in the military voluntarily chose to be a part of two unjust wars.  No one was forced to serve.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264760 -

No. The duty of a soldier is to follow all lawful orders. Since those orders come from an outside civilian authority take it up with the top. The only times when a soldier is wrong is when he disobeys lawful orders or behaves in a way that violated UCMJ,Geneva convention et.al.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19264776 -

You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264873 -

They only participated in a war they were sent too. Again, the military has no say except when it comes down how to do "x". If your opinion is the wars are unjust you have to take it up with who sent them. If it wasn't for congress/president the military would just be on training missions and stand by. We sign up in good faith and give up a significant amount of voice and liberty. We hand it over to the elected and then follow.

there are two ways I know to "fight" an order. One is to file for CO, conscience objector status. You can file on religious grounds, like a Quaker or political grounds I.e. "unjust war".

the other is through UCMJ, akin to taking a case to the Supreme Court with the same high stakes and pressure. The last case I know of was in 03 when reservists refused to leave the wire until they had the same hardware as their active duty counterparts. They lost I think. Point is none of it would have happened, including the war without the ok from the rest of you who had a say.

the military is a Republic in the rawest form, everybody in uniform gives up a piece of themselves to form something bigger. That creature is then at the behest of others. We sign up, regardless of motive with a blank slate. Its up to the rest of you to make the cause just.

Edited by myc_check1212 (12/12/13 09:01 AM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265007 -

They were only "sent" to the war because they signed up KNOWING WE WERE AT WAR.  They volunteered to go to war.  No one drafted them.  They knew we were at war, and knew that if they signed up, they'd likely be participating in that way.  They are 100% responsible for their participation.

Your argument is so nonsensical that it's hard to believe that you're not trolling.  If I pull a lever knowing it will kill someone, I'm responsible for killing that person, regardless of whether or not I created the lever or hooked it up to the apparatus that kills the person.  I knew it would happen and chose to pull it knowing someone would die because of it.

Similarly, everyone in the military today KNEW we were at war when they chose to be, or continue being, in the military.  It's not like anyone joined up and suddenly found out they were going to go to war.  That would be a different situation, and is simply not the case today.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265456 -

Enlil said:
They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.


Assumes facts not in evidence - that the resumption of hostilities in Iraq meets the criteria for qualifying as an "unjust" war. Or were you speaking of Afghanistan?


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265476 -

Both were unjust wars in my opinion...that's the only opinion that matters to me.  If these soldiers have different opinions, and are willing to participate in the wars because they find them to be just, that's fine for them...It still gives me a valid reason to judge them based on their participation, though.

The bottom line is that anyone who is in the military today is a willing participant in what I deem to be an unjust war.  That participation alone is enough for me to respect them somewhat less than I would otherwise.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265484 -

myc_check1212 said:
No. The duty of a soldier is to follow all lawful orders. Since those orders come from an outside civilian authority take it up with the top. The only times when a soldier is wrong is when he disobeys lawful orders or behaves in a way that violated UCMJ,Geneva convention et.al.



So if a soldier gets an order to murder a village of innocent children and does it, he has done nothing wrong?


you have a warped sense of morality sir.  In that case the right thing to do would be to disobey orders and try to bring that commander to justice.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265508 -

myc_check1212 said:
They only participated in a war they were sent too. Again, the military has no say except when it comes down how to do "x". If your opinion is the wars are unjust you have to take it up with who sent them. If it wasn't for congress/president the military would just be on training missions and stand by. We sign up in good faith and give up a significant amount of voice and liberty. We hand it over to the elected and then follow.

there are two ways I know to "fight" an order. One is to file for CO, conscience objector status. You can file on religious grounds, like a Quaker or political grounds I.e. "unjust war".

the other is through UCMJ, akin to taking a case to the Supreme Court with the same high stakes and pressure. The last case I know of was in 03 when reservists refused to leave the wire until they had the same hardware as their active duty counterparts. They lost I think. Point is none of it would have happened, including the war without the ok from the rest of you who had a say.

the military is a Republic in the rawest form, everybody in uniform gives up a piece of themselves to form something bigger. That creature is then at the behest of others. We sign up, regardless of motive with a blank slate. Its up to the rest of you to make the cause just.



"Just following orders"  is by no means an excuse for carrying out orders that are wrong.

You are not a programmed robot.  You can and should disobey orders that are wrong.

The individual actions you choose to make orders or not are 100% all o  you.  Trying to skirt the blame up the chain of commsnd is cowardly and a weasels way of trying to excuse his own guilt and immorality.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265510 -

Enlil said:
Both were unjust wars in my opinion...that's the only opinion that matters to me.


Unnecessary, perhaps. Unjust? Hardly.


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265514 -

Phred said:
Enlil said:
They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.


Assumes facts not in evidence - that the resumption of hostilities in Iraq meets the criteria for qualifying as an "unjust" war. Or were you speaking of Afghanistan?


Phred


You're even more deluded than the other guy.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265520 -

So there you have it.  Your opinion and my opinion differ.  That's certainly not uncommon.  I can see no argument wherein invading Iraq and/or Afghanistan meets anything close to a rational definition of justice.  YMMV and obviously does, however.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19265522 -

Dude that argument is flaccid, that order would be UNLAWFUL, no body should follow that because of the rules I already stated. UCMJ, Geneva Convention et.al. Shit that was lame. Try again

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265526 -


Enlil said:
Both were unjust wars in my opinion...that's the only opinion that matters to me.


Unnecessary, perhaps. Unjust? Hardly.


Phred


what's the difference?  War could only possibly be deemed just if it is absolutely necessary.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19265530 -


"just following orders" what a load of shit.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265535 -

All LAWFUL ORDERS. LAWFUL BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD.  LAWFUL

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265545 -

myc_check1212 said:
Dude that argument is flaccid, that order would be UNLAWFUL, no body should follow that because of the rules I already stated. UCMJ, Geneva Convention et.al. Shit that was lame. Try again



Who's law?  What if you were told it was lawful or in your country it was?

you're seriously deluded if you think this government even follows its own laws.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265553 -

myc_check1212 said:
All LAWFUL ORDERS. LAWFUL BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD.  LAWFUL



Are you trying to say that lawful orders are always just and moral?  Hitler made it the law to round up jews.... I guess you would have been a Nazi if you were born 70 years ago in germany.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19265595 -

I'm talking about now, in 2013. Most first world powers signed onto and operate by a code of rules. The deployment was lawful, destroy Saddams army is lawful, engagement of active military targets is lawful.

directly shooting unarmed populace is UNLAWFUL.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265596 -

myc_check1212 said:
I'm talking about now, in 2013.


Right now, in 2013, everyone in the military joined or re-upped KNOWING that they would be ordered to do immoral things.  They joined anyway.  That makes them immoral.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265602 -

Rounding up jews in germany was lawful too.

I can't believe you don't see the gaping flaw in your logic.

law does not equal morality or justice.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265622 -

Immoral is subjective to the beholder. So yes I agree it could be argued immoral. But not unlawful. In regards to Iraq,Afghanistan.

stay in 2013 and on topic regarding U.S. Personnel and policy

Edited by myc_check1212 (12/12/13 12:46 PM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265638 -

So, you agree that it's perfectly fair for me, and others like me, to judge soldiers as being immoral based on their participation in immoral acts, whether or not they were just following lawful orders?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265707 -

Morality is not subjective.  It is based on natural law (physics)


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265743 -

I think we took the long way but yes. Its well within your first amendment rights. We probably could have got here quicker if I hadn't ripped some cherry kush.

with that being said I got the answer to my question. The stuff I see is not hate, but judgment based upon the grounds of mortality

Edited by myc_check1212 (12/12/13 01:14 PM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19266238 -

myc_check1212 said:
I'm talking about now, in 2013. Most first world powers signed onto and operate by a code of rules. The deployment was lawful, destroy Saddams army is lawful, engagement of active military targets is lawful.

directly shooting unarmed populace is UNLAWFUL.


Remember Collateral Murder? We know soldiers murder civilians when things are going bad. That's what happens in war. Often the brass allow it and reporting it becomes a martial crime even though not reporting it is also a crime.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266328 -

Congress never even declared any wars so yeah... law?  Lol.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266390 -

Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266407 -

They were both quite unjust, actually.  There was no adequate reason to invade either country.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266433 -

Quote:
Enlil said:Right now, in 2013, everyone in the military joined or re-upped KNOWING that they would be ordered to do immoral things.  They joined anyway.  That makes them immoral.


So you are in favor of disbanding the US military?


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19266437 -

No, but I'd certainly be in favor of a drastic reduction in size.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19266446 -

LOL.

What difference would it make? Those who comprise it would still be immoral, in your truly bizarre worldview.


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19266454 -

That's currently true, but if no one enlisted, we wouldn't be at war.  Then our military might be used for national security and defense instead of grudge fights and political agendas.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266464 -

If no one enlisted, there would be no military. No military, no national security and defense.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266471 -

zappaisgod said:
Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.


If you mean might makes right, then no, it was just.

"From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the Iraq war] was illegal." -UN

They never actually declared war against Iraq either. Congress just approved an attack.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19266481 -

Initially, sure...But people would enlist because we weren't engaged in unjust wars, and it's unlikely that the nation would use the few new enlistees to go stir up shit in foreign countries. 

Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266508 -

Enlil said:
Initially, sure...But people would enlist because we weren't engaged in unjust wars, and it's unlikely that the nation would use the few new enlistees to go stir up shit in foreign countries. 

Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.


Agreed. If my Canadian military wasn't willing to send me to die in a desert for no reason, I'd join up for the experience and skills and the actual honor of defending your country. As it stands, it seems to attract the immoral who don't mind killing so others can make money. Like a mercenary but you don't even get to keep the booty.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266520 -

TheOtherAdamSmith said:
Enlil said:
Initially, sure...But people would enlist because we weren't engaged in unjust wars, and it's unlikely that the nation would use the few new enlistees to go stir up shit in foreign countries. 

Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.


Agreed. If my Canadian military wasn't willing to send me to die in a desert for no reason, I'd join up for the experience and skills and the actual honor of defending your country. As it stands, it seems to attract the immoral who don't mind killing so others can make money. Like a mercenary but you don't even get to keep the booty.


most people i know who have enlisted are of the "yea fuck sand niggers!" attitude. Sociopathic idiots who just want an excuse to be racist and kill.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266529 -

Enlil said:
They were both quite unjust, actually.  There was no adequate reason to invade either country.


That is, quite frankly, deranged nonsense.  Do you believe in contracts?  Saddam Hussein was in violation of his contract.  Do you believe in law enforcement?  Afghanistan was harboring an international mass murderer.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266531 -

Enlil said:
That's currently true, but if no one enlisted, we wouldn't be at war.  Then our military might be used for national security and defense instead of grudge fights and political agendas.


:flowstone:If no one enlisted we would have no military at all.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266537 -

TheOtherAdamSmith said:
zappaisgod said:
Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.


If you mean might makes right, then no, it was just.

"From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the Iraq war] was illegal." -UN

They never actually declared war against Iraq either. Congress just approved an attack.


Umm the UN and 50 other countries backed it.  You cannot make up facts.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266541 -

The world supported Afghanistan, most of the US allies didn't support Iraq. The politicians from other countries who did got their ass beat at the voting booths.

What did Saddam do that demanded he be taken out? Saudi Arabia is one of the US' best friends, full of fundamentalist Sunnis, and they are where the 9/11 terrorist came from. They didn't deserve an attack?

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19266543 -

There really is a huge difference between the wars of today and WWII for instance.  In WWII, we were bombed by another nation, and all of Europe was being invaded by a tyrant.  People who enlisted, and those who were drafted, were actively engaged in defending our way of life.

Today, we invaded one country because they broke an agreement, and another because they refused to turn over a suspected terrorist.  Neither of those are a good reason to kill people.  If they were, why didn't we invade France for not turning Roman Polanski over?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266554 -

zappaisgod said:
That is, quite frankly, deranged nonsense.  Do you believe in contracts?  Saddam Hussein was in violation of his contract.  Do you believe in law enforcement?  Afghanistan was harboring an international mass murderer.


This is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen you write.  Are you saying that killing thousands for breaking a contract is just?  That is beyond stupid.


And name another time when we've invaded a country to get a fugitive.  That is simply ridiculous, dude.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266568 -

Enlil said:
There really is a huge difference between the wars of today and WWII for instance.  In WWII, we were bombed by another nation, and all of Europe was being invaded by a tyrant.  People who enlisted, and those who were drafted, were actively engaged in defending our way of life.

Today, we invaded one country because they broke an agreement, and another because they refused to turn over a suspected terrorist.  Neither of those are a good reason to kill people.  If they were, why didn't we invade France for not turning Roman Polanski over?


why are you responding to me? :confused:


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266571 -

TheOtherAdamSmith said:
The world supported Afghanistan, most of the US allies didn't support Iraq. The politicians from other countries who did got their ass beat at the voting booths.

What did Saddam do that demanded he be taken out? Saudi Arabia is one of the US' best friends, full of fundamentalist Sunnis, and they are where the 9/11 terrorist came from. They didn't deserve an attack?


Most of US allies didn't support Iraq?  How come 50 of them joined in and the UN said fine?  The Saudi government did not perpetrate 9/11.  A handful of their citizens did.  Citizens that they were well supportive of jailing and they had in fact been pursuing bin Laden for quite some time.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19266576 -

Why does it bother you?  I'm agreeing with you.  Your insecurity is showing, bro.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266607 -

Enlil said:
zappaisgod said:
That is, quite frankly, deranged nonsense.  Do you believe in contracts?  Saddam Hussein was in violation of his contract.  Do you believe in law enforcement?  Afghanistan was harboring an international mass murderer.


This is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen you write.  Are you saying that killing thousands for breaking a contract is just?  That is beyond stupid.


And name another time when we've invaded a country to get a fugitive.  That is simply ridiculous, dude.


What started WW1?  The Taliban are fucking monsters who harbored and succored terrorists for decades.  Enough.  Iraq invaded Kuwait and signed a cease fire agreement that was violated.  There was no new war, just a resumption of hostilities in earnest.  Even Clinton bombed him.  It was enough.

What is beyond stupid is cowards who stick their head in the sand and refuse to accept that there are scumbags acting to tap that ass for all it is worth and yet whinge endlessly when they get the dick they deserve.  I aint putting my head in the sand and I aint presenting my ass for the jolly rogering some seem to be willing to take.

Not for nothing but you are going to have go a long way towards proving that either of our actions resulted in greater net misery.  Both the Taliban and Saddam were murdering monsters


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266651 -

zappaisgod said:
TheOtherAdamSmith said:
The world supported Afghanistan, most of the US allies didn't support Iraq. The politicians from other countries who did got their ass beat at the voting booths.

What did Saddam do that demanded he be taken out? Saudi Arabia is one of the US' best friends, full of fundamentalist Sunnis, and they are where the 9/11 terrorist came from. They didn't deserve an attack?


Most of US allies didn't support Iraq?  How come 50 of them joined in and the UN said fine?  The Saudi government did not perpetrate 9/11.  A handful of their citizens did.  Citizens that they were well supportive of jailing and they had in fact been pursuing bin Laden for quite some time.


The UN didn't say fine. The US went it without a resolution. The UN just isn't able to punish them for it. Learn your history. The only countries they don't own that agreed were Australia and the UK. Germany, Canada, all those others who usually support them? Hell no.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266661 -

I don't know what "not for nothing" even means....

The rest of your rant is just that.  You claim we went to war in Iraq because they broke a contract.  That is not a valid reason to kill thousands of people, dude...color it however you want.

As for Afghanistan, there are tons of shitbags in the world...including many in our own nation.  That doesn't mean it's okay to invade a nation and kill thousands of citizens of said nation. 

You seem to be okay with the idea of going to war over just about anything.  I'm not.  I don't think bullying a bully makes us any less culpable, particularly when we harm a whole lot of the bullied at the same time.  Your whole philosophy in this regard smacks of some kind of twisted mix of national pride and ethnocentric narcissism.  We've no fucking business going to foreign lands and killing people just because we don't like the way they do things.  FFS, that's not much different from what Al Qaeda did to us a decade and change ago.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266678 -

Enlil said:
I don't know what "not for nothing" even means....

The rest of your rant is just that.  You claim we went to war in Iraq because they broke a contract.  That is not a valid reason to kill thousands of people, dude...color it however you want.


If I break my tax contract with the government they come with guns and put me in jail unless I defend myself.  Then they shoot me.  Contract enforcement.
Quote:
As for Afghanistan, there are tons of shitbags in the world...including many in our own nation.  That doesn't mean it's okay to invade a nation and kill thousands of citizens of said nation. 

You seem to be okay with the idea of going to war over just about anything.  I'm not.  I don't think bullying a bully makes us any less culpable, particularly when we harm a whole lot of the bullied at the same time.  Your whole philosophy in this regard smacks of some kind of twisted mix of national pride and ethnocentric narcissism.  We've no fucking business going to foreign lands and killing people just because we don't like the way they do things.  FFS, that's not much different from what Al Qaeda did to us a decade and change ago.


If you house and support Clyde Barrow and the popo come to get him and you say, "No, fuck you" and they bring their guns and you fight back you gonna get shot up too.

I am surprised a lawyer doesn't believe in the law.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266694 -

Your analogies fail on many levels, but the most important shortcoming within them is that they miss the fact that the people killed in war are not the people culpable for the conduct being punished.

It would be like the IRS coming and bombing your entire block because you failed to file a tax return....or the cops shooting people until they finally get barrow.

I do believe in the law, and one of the core principles of the law is sovereignty.  Iraq and Afghanistan are (were) sovereign nations and were NOT subject to U.S. law.  We invaded them because we didn't like something they did...not because they attacked us...or even one of our allies..  We didn't approve of their behavior, so we invaded.

Where was the bombing of France over Roman Polanski?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266732 -

Enlil said:
Your analogies fail on many levels, but the most important shortcoming within them is that they miss the fact that the people killed in war are not the people culpable for the conduct being punished.


Some of them are and some of them aren't.  Who is responsible for the deaths from a police chase that kills a pedestrian?  What does the law say, counselor?
Quote:
It would be like the IRS coming and bombing your entire block because you failed to file a tax return....or the cops shooting people until they finally get barrow.


Well no.  It would be like the IRS shooting me when I stood my ground with a gun and told them to fuck off
Quote:
I do believe in the law, and one of the core principles of the law is sovereignty.  Iraq and Afghanistan are (were) sovereign nations and were NOT subject to U.S. law.  We invaded them because we didn't like something they did...not because they attacked us...or even one of our allies..  We didn't approve of their behavior, so we invaded.


Was Iraq sovereign after it signed the cease fire agreement?  If you are going to argue that that contract meant nothing then let's by all means never accept another surrender
Quote:
Where was the bombing of France over Roman Polanski?

  I believe we should go there and get the pedophile freak.  There or anywhere else.  He aint exactly hiding.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266757 -

zappaisgod said:
Who is responsible for the deaths from a police chase that kills a pedestrian?  What does the law say, counselor?

The cop if he was negligent, and the person being chased
Quote:
Well no.  It would be like the IRS shooting me when I stood my ground with a gun and told them to fuck off

That would be illegal, too, and whoever shot you would likely be prosecuted for it
Quote:
Was Iraq sovereign after it signed the cease fire agreement? 

Yes
Quote:
  I believe we should go there and get the pedophile freak.  There or anywhere else.  He aint exactly hiding.


And maybe other countries should invade us for not turning over fugitives.  I do recall that Bush and Cheney were indicted.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266879 -

Enlil said:
zappaisgod said:
Who is responsible for the deaths from a police chase that kills a pedestrian?  What does the law say, counselor?

The cop if he was negligent, and the person being chased


And if there is no cop negligence?
Quote:
Quote:
Well no.  It would be like the IRS shooting me when I stood my ground with a gun and told them to fuck off


That would be illegal, too, and whoever shot you would likely be prosecuted for it


ORLY?  A cop can be arrested for shooting me while violently resisting arrest? 
Quote:
Quote:
Was Iraq sovereign after it signed the cease fire agreement? 

Yes


Bullshit.  They surrendered much of their sovereignty when the accepted the terms
Quote:
Quote:
  I believe we should go there and get the pedophile freak.  There or anywhere else.  He aint exactly hiding.


And maybe other countries should invade us for not turning over fugitives.  I do recall that Bush and Cheney were indicted.


Polanski wasn't indicted.  He was convicted


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266911 -

zappaisgod said:
Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.




Yeah yeah we all know in your eyes killing muslims is just under any circumstances


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266927 -

Enlil said:
Why does it bother you?  I'm agreeing with you.  Your insecurity is showing, bro.


i wasn't bothered. I got confused about what my previous post was so i didn't understand why you had set reply to me.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19266955 -

Shins said:
zappaisgod said:
Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.




Yeah yeah we all know in your eyes killing muslims is just under any circumstances


No.  Do you know who kills, by far, the most Muslims?  Muslims.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266959 -

zappaisgod said:
Shins said:
zappaisgod said:
Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.




Yeah yeah we all know in your eyes killing muslims is just under any circumstances


No.  Do you know who kills, by far, the most Muslims?  Muslims.


and we should get the fuck out of the way and let them kill each other.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19266998 -

Now, yes.  100% out.  If they act stupid again deal with it then.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19267105 -

zappaisgod said:
ORLY?  A cop can be arrested for shooting me while violently resisting arrest? 

Holding a gun and telling someone to fuck off isn't violently resisting arrest, and it isn't justification to shoot someone.  Further, the IRS isn't a police agency.  Even further, the military aren't cops.  Even further still, IRS obligations aren't a matter of contract.  Your silly little metaphor fails at every level.
Quote:
Polanski wasn't indicted.  He was convicted


Does that make him any more of a fugitive?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19267537 -

First off, thank you for adding my quote to your sig, I'll wear it as a badge of  honor.


Second excuse the backtrack here but there's something I need to clear up

Quote:
There are many ways to serve one's country.  If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.


Then who does?

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19267612 -

People who do public research into public health issues, scientists who develop technologies for national defense or infrastructure upgrades to help America be more competitive...tons of people contribute far more than manual labor or service as a meat shield..


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19267883 -

Quote:
scientists who develop technologies for national defense or infrastructure upgrades to help America be more competitive


So you want to know how to make the infrastructure upgrades, but your party doesn't want to spend the dollars to help America be more competitive.

How is paying people billions to "develop technologies for national defense" honorable and someone in the military using those technologies not?

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19268005 -

You're kind of reinforcing his military men aren't very smart point FYI.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19268040 -

sweeper54 said:
Quote:
scientists who develop technologies for national defense or infrastructure upgrades to help America be more competitive


So you want to know how to make the infrastructure upgrades, but your party doesn't want to spend the dollars to help America be more competitive.

How is paying people billions to "develop technologies for national defense" honorable and someone in the military using those technologies not?


i assure you that scientists getting government grants in universities are not getting billions of dollars :lol:


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19268111 -

I'm not talking about scientists getting government grants in universities.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19268127 -

thats where most government funded research takes place


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19268440 -

Enlil said:
There are many ways to serve one's country.  If the best one has to offer is military service, then he/she doesn't have much to offer at all.


You're a douche they have a job whether they like it or not. The least you can do is recognize that they believe that they as an individual are standing for you. :psycrankey: Whether they are right or wrong only they can decide. Fuck all the politics. S.T.F.U. You self centered asshat.


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:kingcrankey: Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings :flipthebird: And all time Champion thread killer.:thatsayes:

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #19268914 -

How can they be standing for me if they don't know what I believe or want on an issue?  They are standing for themselves and what they believe and are not concerned with standing for what I believe.  It may or may not be what I think is right or proper.  They don't really care about that.  I know some pretty nice people in the military but not one of them would ever lie to me and tell me he joined for my benefit. :facepalm: They joined for the career opportunity. (one's on a nuclear sub) He could never have gotten that education on a civilian level that easily. He was broke.  He would laugh in my face if I tried to tell him he joined up to stand for me. :lol:

Also flaming is against forum rules here.  It hardly puts your case on the high ground.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/13/13 01:15 AM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19269395 -

sweeper54 said:
So you want to know how to make the infrastructure upgrades, but your party doesn't want to spend the dollars to help America be more competitive.

What party is that?
Quote:
How is paying people billions to "develop technologies for national defense" honorable and someone in the military using those technologies not?


You asked who has a lot to offer in service of their country.  I answered.  It had nothing to do with being honorable.  Someone who brings technological innovation to the table clearly offers more than someone who uses that technology.  That's a no-brainer...unless you think that by turning on your bathroom light, you're on par with Thomas Edison inventing it.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19269523 -

Quote:
Someone who brings technological innovation to the table clearly offers more than someone who uses that technology.  That's a no-brainer...unless you think that by turning on your bathroom light, you're on par with Thomas Edison inventing it.


And I can turn that on you also. Technology on the table is just that, until the common man builds it and that something you elitists don't get.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19269558 -

It's not about the "common man" vs some other type of man, dude.  My point is that value is proportional to scarcity.  More people can make/use a widget than can invent the widget, therefore inventing the widget is more valuable.  An inventor brings more value to the table than the manufacturer or the end user. 

To bring this back on topic, millions of people in the nation can carry and fire a gun, but far fewer can design a better gun.  Those who design them bring more to the table and do more in service of their country than those who carry them.

The people who choose to become soldiers do so because they can't or won't design the gun. I admire that they've chosen to serve, but I don't admire the way they've chosen because it's something that almost anyone could do.  Further, in today's current situation, I don't admire the decision to participate in what I deem unjust wars.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19269636 -

I've been an Army Recruiter and an Army Drill Sergeant and I can tell first hand "ANYONE" cannot serve in the military even in a support role.

It IS about the common man, and respect for the common man.

Quote:
Those who design them bring more to the table and do more in service of their country than those who carry them.


You can have all the widget and guns in the world but until the common man uses those gun and widget you have nothing.

Quote:
I don't admire the decision to participate in what I deem unjust wars.


Service man and women don't have the luxury of turning down assignment like you may have with a case. They are proud of what they have to do and put their personal feeling aside to do their job.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19269650 -

They had the option of not joining or re-upping when they found out that we were engaged in two unjust wars.  They're 100% responsible for their participation.  Everyone in the military now made the decision to be, or continue being, in the military during those unjust wars. 

As for them being proud...what kind of a man is proud to participate in the killing of thousands of people for breaching a contract?  Certainly not any kind of man I can respect.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19269778 -

The vast majority of people killed over there were killed in their civil war not the US military.

I agree with you that both these are unjust wars, and I've always told people that if you want to support the troops, bring them home. Afghanistan didn't start out that way, it was corrupted by Dickless Cheney and Dumbsfeld in their greed to control Iraq's oil.

Even though it is wrong for our country to be there, we need them there right now.

Quote:
Certainly not any kind of man I can respect.


And I have no respect for someone who choses to be a lawyer. People in this country scream that they want their country back. It has nothing to do with the Black man in the White House or the Dems in control, it the number of FUCKING  lawyers in this country. Life was simpler when we didn't have hordes of FUCKING lawyers looking for way to separate people and companies from their money. Pubs want Tort reform, get rid of the FUCKING lawyers. Every FUCKING lawyer is looking for his new niche in the law. The reason Bills in congress have to thousands of pages long is to cover all the bases so FUCKING lawyers have a harder time working the loop holes in it.

Why does it take 30 signatures to buy a house? So you'll need a FUCKING lawyer to get the contract signed.

If you want your United States back, get rid of the FUCKING lawyers.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19269785 -

This thread isn't about lawyers or people's vitriol for them.  I knew perfectly well how people felt about lawyers when I decided to be one.

This thread is about vets and people's vitriol for vets.  Stay on topic, please.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19270131 -

The vitriol for lawyers thread is later, and even then it will be for DA's! Lol or divorce attorneys

Edited by myc_check1212 (12/13/13 10:34 AM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19270152 -

I'm sure far more people hate lawyers than vets.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19270445 -

I have to agree with Enlil in this thread, spot on. 

I never liked this "we are fighting 5000 miles away from the homeland to keep your freedom" bullshit that comes out of the military, and enlisted soldiers.

It's an ignorant and arrogant attitude, and citizens should not buy into it.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19270658 -

zappaisgod said:
I find most attorneys to be loathsome self-dealers.


i remembered your hatred of lawyers and thought you might be interested in this article
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/11/teen-who-killed-four-while-driving-three-times-over-the-limit-gets-off-because-his-rich-parents-papered-him/

i love to fuel the fires of hatred :lol:


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19271377 -

Quote:
i love to fuel the fires of hatred


Is there any other t be here?

On another site I took the name 'the Burr' after they banned the use of the word Bur which was the first name I used.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19271710 -

Enlil said:
zappaisgod said:
ORLY?  A cop can be arrested for shooting me while violently resisting arrest? 

Holding a gun and telling someone to fuck off isn't violently resisting arrest, and it isn't justification to shoot someone.  Further, the IRS isn't a police agency.  Even further, the military aren't cops.  Even further still, IRS obligations aren't a matter of contract.  Your silly little metaphor fails at every level.
Quote:
Polanski wasn't indicted.  He was convicted


Does that make him any more of a fugitive?


Nice selective edit lawyer boy  Original post with context included
zappaisgod said:
Enlil said:
zappaisgod said:
Who is responsible for the deaths from a police chase that kills a pedestrian?  What does the law say, counselor?

The cop if he was negligent, and the person being chased


And if there is no cop negligence?
Quote:
Quote:
Well no.  It would be like the IRS shooting me when I stood my ground with a gun and told them to fuck off


That would be illegal, too, and whoever shot you would likely be prosecuted for it


ORLY?  A cop can be arrested for shooting me while violently resisting arrest? 
Quote:
Quote:
Was Iraq sovereign after it signed the cease fire agreement? 

Yes


Bullshit.  They surrendered much of their sovereignty when the accepted the terms
Quote:
Quote:
  I believe we should go there and get the pedophile freak.  There or anywhere else.  He aint exactly hiding.


And maybe other countries should invade us for not turning over fugitives.  I do recall that Bush and Cheney were indicted.


Polanski wasn't indicted.  He was convicted


You equated a convicted felon and pedophile with some foreign nonsense indictment of Bush and Cheney.  Dishonest at best.  The IRS has fewer constraints on their behavior than anybody else and they send cops to arrest you if you do not pay.  Sorry, my analogies are spot on and you are resorting to deception and obfuscation to prove a point you lost.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19271740 -

Not really, dude.  People don't get killed in the U.S. for breach of contract.  There isn't a civilized society on the planet where that is allowed.  You condone the killing of thousands of people because of a breach of contract...that's clearly an indefensible position.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19271984 -

Lol.

but they're muslims, its ok then right Heir Zappa?


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19273889 -

We are protecting Muslims.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274198 -

Well that's a bad idea right there.  :satansmoking:  I'm surprised though. I thought we were protecting our interests in the region.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19274407 -

Icelander said:
Well that's a bad idea right there.  :satansmoking:  I'm surprised though. I thought we were protecting our interests in the region.


They can coincide quite nicely.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274758 -

Well I've rarely noticed us vigorously policing other countries when we have no substantial business interests there.  I'm not very inclined to believe we actually care about the citizens in those countries.  We do care about PR though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19274778 -

Icelander said:
Well I've rarely noticed us vigorously policing other countries when we have no substantial business interests there.  I'm not very inclined to believe we actually care about the citizens in those countries.  We do care about PR though.


We had no business interests to speak of in Afghanistan.  When you govern through a vote you are always in the PR business.  That's why we are governed by PR professionals instead of engineers.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19274906 -

zappaisgod said:
We are protecting Muslims.


thats a hilarious joke, got any more?


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19275010 -

Shins


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19275105 -

Lol.  Thats not nearly as funny.

I am dissappoint.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19275294 -

zappaisgod said:
Icelander said:
Well I've rarely noticed us vigorously policing other countries when we have no substantial business interests there.  I'm not very inclined to believe we actually care about the citizens in those countries.  We do care about PR though.


We had no business interests to speak of in Afghanistan.  When you govern through a vote you are always in the PR business.  That's why we are governed by PR professionals instead of engineers.



Wasn't there something about running a oil pipeline through there and the taliban getting in the way?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19275404 -

No.  Why would we care, anyway?  Pipeline from where to where?  The place was a shithole with no redeeming social value. 


This may have changed a bit recently.  Rare earths have apparently been discovered in abundance.  We'll see.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275419 -

Enlil said:
Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.


Every tax paying citizen of any of the nations that made up the coalition has the same blood on their hands if they continued to pay taxes after hostilities began. Sure, there are consequences for not paying your taxes, but there are consequences for every choice we make in life. By deciding that your comfortable western lifestyle was more important to you then your personal morality about what you claim are unjust wars you have become complicit in the killing by continuing to fund the killing. This is even more true if you've ever voted for Bush or Obama, or one of the many Democrat or Republican Congressmen who supported the wars with their voting records, but even financial support without exercising your right to vote is sufficient to share equal blame.

Also your perception of military personnel are extremely distorted. Not all  are low I.Q. "meat shields" as you try to depict. Sure, some are. They have their place in the military. But the scope of careers in the military is as broad as the private sector. There are aviation mechanics,  machinists, engineers, nurses,  doctors, cardiopulmonary technicians, surgeons, police, and yes Enlil even lawyers. I joined the Air Force, and I can tell you it wasn't a last ditch effort. I had options. I can also tell you it worked out wonderfully for me. Never regretted it a day in my life

Now with all that being said I don't believe anyone deserves respect just for joining. I just don't think they deserve disrespect for it. You have the same blood on your hands as far as I can see. And that's a high and hypocritical horse you're siting on


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

Edited by Simplicitry (12/14/13 04:29 PM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275443 -

*horse


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275459 -

Enlil said:
*horse


Hey, happens to the best of us. I have to give you that one. Now, your feelings on the rest of the post?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275498 -

I've made my case, and I see no point in repeating it. 

As far as your nonsensical argument that everyone who pays taxes had blood on their hands, that is asking the stupidest things I've ever seen an adult write.  Paying taxes is mandatory.  I've no choice on that.  Voting for someone who sends troops off to war is optional.  Joining a military knowing that they'll be used in war is optional.  I hold people accountable for their choices...not for what theme required to do.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275578 -

Enlil said:
I've made my case, and I see no point in repeating it.


In other words you lack a valid response

Quote:
Enlil said:
As far as your nonsensical argument that everyone who pays taxes had blood on their hands, that is asking the stupidest things I've ever seen an adult write.


Holding you accountable for your support of a government you think is guilty of murdering innocents isn't a question
Quote:
Enlil said:
Paying taxes is mandatory.


So was Nazi's following the orders of their superiors

Quote:
Enlil said:
I've no choice on that.


Actually you do. You've just chosen that your comfortable western lifestyle is more important to you then the threat of likely going to jail. So much so you will financially support a government you think is guilty of killing innocent people. And also so much so that you don't view anything else as even an option

Quote:
Enlil said:
Voting for someone who sends troops off to war is optional.


An obvious fact that can't be disputed
Quote:
Enlil said:
Joining a military knowing that they'll be used in war is optional.



This is true. At least at the present time in America

Quote:
Enlil said:
I hold people accountable for their choices...not for what theme required to do.



Unless of course it's people who financially support a government that they think fights unjust wars and kills innocent people that is


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275604 -

Not paying taxes and using government services is morally reprehensible.  I'm a part of a society, and to exempt myself from society's rules is wrong. You're free to project your guilt and shame on me, but I'm free to disagree.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275627 -

Enlil said:
Not paying taxes and using government services is morally reprehensible.  I'm a part of a society, and to exempt myself from society's rules is wrong. You're free to project your guilt and shame on me, but I'm free to disagree.


You're free to make excuses for supporting a government you think fights unjust wars and kills innocent people, but you still support them. No amount of your high & mighty hypocrisy will ever change that you do support them. You did help pay for both wars and that is a just a fact


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275708 -

I'm okay with that.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275732 -

Enlil said:
I'm okay with that.


So you agree that you were hypocritical for looking down on military  personnel for their participation in wars  when you yourself admit to willfully supporting the government that began the wars in the first place? Right?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275763 -

Not at all. There is a huge difference between paying taxes as required by law in lieu of going to jail and volunteering to participate in an unjust war.  That difference is everything.  I dont expect you to understand.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19275790 -

zappaisgod said:
No.  Why would we care, anyway?  Pipeline from where to where?  The place was a shithole with no redeeming social value. 


This may have changed a bit recently.  Rare earths have apparently been discovered in abundance.  We'll see.


http://search.genieo.com/results.html?v=genSomM_16&q=why+are+we+in+afghanistan+oil

This came up when I asked google why we were there. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275805 -

Enlil said:
Not at all. There is a huge difference between paying taxes as required by law in lieu of going to jail and volunteering to participate in an unjust war.  That difference is everything.  I dont expect you to understand.



I understand perfectly, it's the way you rationalize not having the backbone to live up to your personal morals while judging others for not living up to your personal morals. There's a word for that. It's called hypocrisy


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275829 -

My personal morals wouldn't allow me to volunteer to participate.  They do allow me to pay taxes.  I wouldn't judge someone drafted into the military or who was already in when the war started, either...Just those who enlisted or re upped during the war


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275838 -

Also I'm curious. Ever voted for a politician who supported either war in any way?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19275870 -

Enlil said:
My personal morals wouldn't allow me to volunteer to participate.  They do allow me to pay taxes.  I wouldn't judge someone drafted into the military or who was already in when the war started, either...Just those who enlisted or re upped during the war



Wether you see it or not financial and political support of the wars is actually more important then the men and woman who actually serve.

We went to war as a society. A government elected by our people chose war. You as an individual citizen decided that your lifestyle was more important than not financially supporting the war. Holding one group of our Society more responsible, or giving another segment of society a free pass is fucking retarded. Oh yeah, and hypocritical on your behalf


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19275876 -

That's the great thing about our society...You're free to feel however you want, even if it utter stupidity.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19275890 -

Enlil said:
My personal morals wouldn't allow me to volunteer to participate.



Oh yeah, and you do willfully participate everyday of your life. It's just that your hypocrisy blinds you to your participation


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276108 -

You're convinced you're right.  I'm convinced I am.  Neither of us are going to change our minds.  This conversation can serve no further purpose.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276124 -

Enlil said:
You're convinced you're right.  I'm convinced I am.  Neither of us are going to change our minds.  This conversation can serve no further purpose.


Did you avoid this question below for any particular reason?
Simplicitry said:
Also I'm curious. Ever voted for a politician who supported either war in any way?



--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276135 -

I've voted for people who pay taxes, sure...according to you, that's supporting the war.  I've also patronized businesses that pay taxes.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276182 -

Enlil said:
I've voted for people who pay taxes, sure...according to you, that's supporting the war.  I've also patronized businesses that pay taxes.


That wasn't the question. Why are you avoiding it? I asked if you ever voted for a politician with a record that supported either war. It's a  simple question


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276210 -

That's not what you asked.  You asked if I voted for a politician that supported either war in any way.  Entirely different question after your nonsense rant equating paying taxes with supporting the war.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276221 -

Simplicitry said:
Enlil said:
I'm okay with that.


So you agree that you were hypocritical for looking down on military  personnel for their participation in wars  when you yourself admit to willfully supporting the government that began the wars in the first place? Right?


By that logic we would have executed billions of people from all over the planet for war crimes they indirectly facilitated. When you volunteer to wage war for profit you're a mercenary, not a hero.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276266 -

Enlil said:
That's not what you asked.  You asked if I voted for a politician that supported either war in any way.  Entirely different question after your nonsense rant equating paying taxes with supporting the war.



Have you ever voted a politician who voted for legislation that supported either war? Either for authorization or funding?

It only sounds like a nonsense rant to hypocrites


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276275 -

Nope.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Juicin]
    #19276277 -

Juicin said:
Simplicitry said:
Enlil said:
I'm okay with that.


So you agree that you were hypocritical for looking down on military  personnel for their participation in wars  when you yourself admit to willfully supporting the government that began the wars in the first place? Right?


By that logic we would have executed billions of people from all over the planet for war crimes they indirectly facilitated. When you volunteer to wage war for profit you're a mercenary, not a hero.



Good point


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276301 -

Enlil said:
That's not what you asked.  You asked if I voted for a politician that supported either war in any way.  Entirely different question after your nonsense rant equating paying taxes with supporting the war.




And explain to me again how  willfully financially supporting the war isn't supporting the war again. Just because you support it out of cowardice of losing your lifestyle and possibly getting incarcerated instead of supporting it because you believe in the objectives of the war doesn't mean you don't support it. You do supported it you just have a different motivation


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276317 -

I pay my taxes under threat of violence just like everyone else.  We're going in circles, and the dance is getting boring.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276330 -

Enlil said:
Nope.


Well good for you, at least your not a hypocrite in that regard like most Democrats are


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276350 -

Enlil said:
I pay my taxes under threat of violence just like everyone else.  We're going in circles, and the dance is getting boring.


That's your cop out. You pretend that you don't have a choice, but you really do. You know it, and I know it. What it really comes down to is you weighed that choice and decided your cozy american lifestyle is more important to you than your supposed morals about unjust Wars. trying to say otherwise is just you trying to fool yourself

And you're free to bow out of this dance anytime


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276364 -

Since you've nothing new to add, and we're right back where we were an hour ago, I'll leave you to your crazy beliefs.  Feel free to have the last word.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276378 -

Simplicitry said:
Enlil said:
I pay my taxes under threat of violence just like everyone else.  We're going in circles, and the dance is getting boring.


That's your cop out. You pretend that you don't have a choice, but you really do. You know it, and I know it. What it really comes down to is you weighed that choice and decided your cozy american lifestyle is more important to you than your supposed morals about unjust Wars. trying to say otherwise is just you trying to fool yourself

And you're free to bow out of this dance anytime


your logic is some of the most moronic i've ever heard. Thats like saying that everyone who died in the holocaust made the choice to die because they had the choice to escape and didn't. If someone mugs you and steals your money are you supporting them if they go and buy meth?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276382 -

No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19276399 -

Enlil said:
Since you've nothing new to add, and we're right back where we were an hour ago, I'll leave you to your crazy beliefs.  Feel free to have the last word.



If my beliefs were so crazy you wouldn't have such an impossible time refuting them

The American Public is responsible for our country's policies. Nothing crazy about that. Not that I can see. God forbid you be held accountable right. You know you could move to a country that has a foreign policy more to your liking and pay them taxes. Really nobody's forcing your financial support. " But feel free to cling the your cop out


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19276426 -

psyconaught said:
Simplicitry said:
Enlil said:
I pay my taxes under threat of violence just like everyone else.  We're going in circles, and the dance is getting boring.


That's your cop out. You pretend that you don't have a choice, but you really do. You know it, and I know it. What it really comes down to is you weighed that choice and decided your cozy american lifestyle is more important to you than your supposed morals about unjust Wars. trying to say otherwise is just you trying to fool yourself

And you're free to bow out of this dance anytime


your logic is some of the most moronic i've ever heard. Thats like saying that everyone who died in the holocaust made the choice to die because they had the choice to escape and didn't. If someone mugs you and steals your money are you supporting them if they go and buy meth?



Your analogies fail. None are at all similar to what I am saying. If you think that the American government is guilty of shedding innocent blood and that is atrocious then you should move to another country  with a better foreign policyand pay them taxes. If you don't want to that's fine I'm not saying that people that disagree with me should get out. But if you decide to stay and continue to financially support the government then all your indignation is just really hypocrisy. because it becomes obvious at that point you care about something else, no matter what that may be, more than your moral beliefs about the war. no one is forcing you to stay and financially support something that you say is criminal

.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Juicin]
    #19276437 -

Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?


No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276450 -

so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19276481 -

psyconaught said:
so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?


So deciding to live in a country that has a foreign policy that you think is criminal, instead of moving to a country with a different foreign policy you agree with more is equivalent to getting mugged in an alley in what way? You really think that's an equivalent analogy?

you don't think that populations in democracies are at all responsible for the actions of the government? Everyone here knows that politicians from both parties supported both wars correct? You do realize you have other choices than paying taxes to the US government right? just because you don't like those other options don't mean they don't exist. It just means you would rather fund a government that executes what you consider to be unjust wars then to adhere to your morals about those unjust Wars. All that indignation is just hypocrisy if you continue to fund it with your money. What comes out of your wallet is much more convincing than what comes out of your mouth


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276489 -

Simplicitry said:
Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?


No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?



You're trying to ignore the valid point he's making. How about a serious  response.  I'd like to hear it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276506 -

Simplicitry said:
psyconaught said:
so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?


So deciding to live in a country that has a foreign policy that you think is criminal, instead of moving to a country with a different foreign policy you agree with more is equivalent to getting mugged in an alley in what way? You really think that's an equivalent analogy?

you don't think that populations in democracies are at all responsible for the actions of the government? Everyone here knows that politicians from both parties supported both wars correct? You do realize you have other choices than paying taxes to the US government right? just because you don't like those other options don't mean they don't exist? it just means you would rather fund a government that executes what you consider to be unjust wars then to adhere to your morals about those unjust Wars.


i believe those who voted for candidates that supported a particular decision are responsible for that decision/policy. I've never voted for anyone who supported a war (nor will i ever). Your argument consists of like it or get out. Which is a bull shit cop out argument on your part. You also ignore the option of doing things to stop the war. Protecting myself from violence does not equate me to supporting other violence on the aggressors behalf.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19276538 -

Icelander said:
Simplicitry said:
Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?


No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?



You're trying to ignore the valid point he's making. How about a serious  response.  I'd like to hear it.


I don't think the Geneva Conventions or war crimes is relevant to the discussion. We weren't discussing who is criminally culpable for war crimes. We were discussing the morality of joining the armed services, at which point I pointed out that I don't believe the military service personnel are the only ones to carry the moral load of an armed conflict on their backs. I believe everybody in society does, well at least in societies free elections where you have the right to move abroad if you so desire.

Now as far as the Geneva Conventions and war crimes are concerned I believe those directly responsible for crimes are the ones that should be prosecuted for them. But again,  honestly believe that's a different subject altogether


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19276570 -

psyconaught said:
Simplicitry said:
psyconaught said:
so essentially unless i renounce my citizenship i am 100% responsible for every action my government takes :facepalm: once again, if someone approaches me in an alley and threatens me with violence if i do not give them my money am i responsible for what they do with that money?


So deciding to live in a country that has a foreign policy that you think is criminal, instead of moving to a country with a different foreign policy you agree with more is equivalent to getting mugged in an alley in what way? You really think that's an equivalent analogy?

you don't think that populations in democracies are at all responsible for the actions of the government? Everyone here knows that politicians from both parties supported both wars correct? You do realize you have other choices than paying taxes to the US government right? just because you don't like those other options don't mean they don't exist? it just means you would rather fund a government that executes what you consider to be unjust wars then to adhere to your morals about those unjust Wars.


i believe those who voted for candidates that supported a particular decision are responsible for that decision/policy. I've never voted for anyone who supported a war (nor will i ever). Your argument consists of like it or get out. Which is a bull shit cop out argument on your part. You also ignore the option of doing things to stop the war. Protecting myself from violence does not equate me to supporting other violence on the aggressors behalf.



I never said like it or get out. As a matter of fact I said the exact opposite a couple posts up. You know what is a cop out? You pretending like you have no other options then to support the US government financially or face violence. The truth is there are other options. People who stay just decided that them funding unjust wars is more acceptable than the other options. Which is fine, again I'm not saying that people to disagree with me should leave. I just don't think those people should look down there nose at military personnel and pretend that they're innocent in some way that military personnel or not. That last part is hypocrisy in my opinion


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276649 -

I think the ones who pull the trigger hold the biggest moral responsibility.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276796 -

Yea we're discussing who is morally culpable. And who should be held accountable for actions taken by a military. Don't beat around the fucking bush and give a response that makes sense

My grandmother is not a war criminal.

Edited by Juicin (12/14/13 10:11 PM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19276894 -

Simplicitry said:
Icelander said:
Simplicitry said:
Juicin said:
No, it's not a cop out

If blame was equal you could have taken German citizens from WW2 and killed every one who payed a penny in tax and knew it would go to unprovoked war, or to commit genocide.

Or pick any other example you want of a states military committing atrocities. That puts the blame squarely on you and me (presuming you're a U.S. citizen) for breaking the Geneva Conventions. Do you hear yourself? My grandma is war criminal?


No one here is talking about war crimes or the Geneva Convention. Well except you. I just can't figure out why you are?



You're trying to ignore the valid point he's making. How about a serious  response.  I'd like to hear it.


I don't think the Geneva Conventions or war crimes is relevant to the discussion. We weren't discussing who is criminally culpable for war crimes. We were discussing the morality of joining the armed services, at which point I pointed out that I don't believe the military service personnel are the only ones to carry the moral load of an armed conflict on their backs. I believe everybody in society does, well at least in societies free elections where you have the right to move abroad if you so desire.

Now as far as the Geneva Conventions and war crimes are concerned I believe those directly responsible for crimes are the ones that should be prosecuted for them. But again,  honestly believe that's a different subject altogether


While I agree we all bear some responsibility I'm of the opinion that there are degrees of responsibility.  If I stand by and watch a murder take place and I'm afraid to act to stop it for whatever reason, would that put me exactly on par with the one who chose to commit the murder?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19277312 -

Shins said:
I think the ones who pull the trigger hold the biggest moral responsibility.


The majority of military personnel aren't trigger pullers, and pulling a trigger is lawful many times. Even moral many times. That always depends on circumstances


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Juicin]
    #19277350 -

Juicin said:
Yea we're discussing who is morally culpable. And who should be held accountable for actions taken by a military. Don't beat around the fucking bush and give a response that makes sense

My grandmother is not a war criminal.



We were discussing the morality of joining the armed forces & the morality of paying taxes to a government that starts what said tax payers find to be unjust wars killing innocent people. We were not discussing culpability for war crimes, or your grandmother. I'll go ahead and take your word that she's not a war criminal. Now that we have that all cleared I trust we can move on with the conversation


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19277403 -

Icelander said:
While I agree we all bear some responsibility I'm of the opinion that there are degrees of responsibility.  If I stand by and watch a murder take place and I'm afraid to act to stop it for whatever reason, would that put me exactly on par with the one who chose to commit the murder?


I feel that analogies fail more often then not. I think in our current discussion a more accurate analogy for a tax payer would be someone who rents a hotel room and purchases a knife for the murderer. But I'd like to move away from analogies all together

I think that people who look down on military personnel and continue to willfully and peacefully pay taxes to what they act like is the evil fucking empire when they in fact have other options are hypocrites.

It's important to note that a strong percentage of people in the military are not combat oriented and are never going to"pull a trigger"


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277424 -

Holy shit dude you're talking in circles.

Think about what you said, then apply that to yourself. Let's assume your country's government armed forces has done something inappropriate. You by paying even a penny of federal tax are just as culpable as the men who carried out the "illegal" operation.

So just to be clear, you have still have the high ground if you pay taxes.

I doubt I need to explain to you why people hate corporate mercenaries. And clearly just because you pay taxes you don't lose the right to have an opinion of the scum

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277436 -

Simplicitry said:
Icelander said:
While I agree we all bear some responsibility I'm of the opinion that there are degrees of responsibility.  If I stand by and watch a murder take place and I'm afraid to act to stop it for whatever reason, would that put me exactly on par with the one who chose to commit the murder?


I feel that analogies fail more often then not. I think in our current discussion a more accurate analogy for a tax payer would be someone who rents a hotel room and purchases a knife for the murderer. But I'd like to move away from analogies all together

I think that people who look down on military personnel and continue to willfully and peacefully pay taxes to what they act like is the evil fucking empire when they in fact have other options are hypocrites.

It's important to note that a strong percentage of people in the military are not combat oriented and are never going to"pull a trigger"



Most of the people I know in the military went in for the money and education.  However the chance they might have to kill someone they don't really consider an enemy is always there and a big reason I never considered it.  Frankly killing people I truly don't consider my enemy would be very difficult to live with to say the least. However not everyone feels that way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277478 -

Simplicitry said:
Shins said:
I think the ones who pull the trigger hold the biggest moral responsibility.


The majority of military personnel aren't trigger pullers, and pulling a trigger is lawful many times. Even moral many times. That always depends on circumstances



Thats why soldiers and governments need to be kept to the highest standards, its also possible to be responsible for good things.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Juicin]
    #19277616 -

Juicin said:
Holy shit dude you're talking in circles.

Think about what you said, then apply that to yourself. Let's assume your country's government armed forces has done something inappropriate. You by paying even a penny of federal tax are just as culpable as the men who carried out the "illegal" operation.

So just to be clear, you have still have the high ground if you pay taxes.

I doubt I need to explain to you why people hate corporate mercenaries. And clearly just because you pay taxes you don't lose the right to have an opinion of the scum



If my country does something reprehensible I am not criminally culpable for that action. Nobody is arguing that and it baffles me that you can't understand that I'm not arguing that. I never said that

What I said was

If your country does something you think is reprehensible, and continues to do so ( in this case the example being the anti-war crowd), and you continue to willfully and peacefully pay taxes to that government when you have other options available. Then in that instance you have no moral high ground to stand on and look down on military service personnel. Thinking otherwise is hypocrisy. At that point you have willfully chosen to continue financial support of the war that you're looking down on military personnel for executing. The military personnel are not the source of the policy, the government you've chosen to financially support is

Again, don't confuse yourself any further, no one is talking about criminal culpability. I'm not even saying you're morally responsible for everything your government does. What I am saying is that once a government commit an act, and continues to carry it out if you remain compliant with that government and continue to financially support it then you share some of the moral burden of those actions as long as you continue to support that government

Put in the most simple terms you are morally responsible for things you finance as long as you continue to willfully finance them. 

Simple enough to understand right?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19277644 -

Icelander said:
Most of the people I know in the military went in for the money and education.


That's a good reason to join. I can find no fault in that. I've said in this thread already. But just to clarify, I've never been the kind of person that thought that someone should be put on a pedestal just for joining the armed services.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Icelander]
    #19277821 -

The last few pages are a perfect example of what I was talking about in that PM, Icelander.  Simplicitry has dug himself so deeply into an indefensible position that he can't back down even though the absurdity of his argument is apparent to everyone including himself.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19277953 -

Enlil said:
The last few pages are a perfect example of what I was talking about in that PM, Icelander.  Simplicitry has dug himself so deeply into an indefensible position that he can't back down even though the absurdity of his argument is apparent to everyone including himself.



Being morally responsible for what you willfully finance is absurd.  Please explain how for me and the other readers. Your just in denial over the fact that you are as guilty of the war dead as anybody else contributing to the coalition forces including soldiers. You're in denial that's all


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277965 -

*you're

And I was talking ABOUT you...not to you.  Your interpretation of the word "willfully" is the absurd part.  You're not going to get it, so there's no point in trying to help you do so.  Maybe after a decade or so of growth, you will.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19277968 -

Enlil said:
The last few pages are a perfect example of what I was talking about in that PM, Icelander.  Simplicitry has dug himself so deeply into an indefensible position that he can't back down even though the absurdity of his argument is apparent to everyone including himself.



You do acknowledge the fact that you can move to a country that doesn't contribute to the coalition forces and pay taxes there correct.That means your financial support of the wars is not mandatory. That's just your bullshit cop out. You willfully support a government that you think executes unjust wars and kills innocent people, and then you look down your nose at the military personnel that the government uses to carry out that objective. Nothing absurd about my belief that makes you a hypocrite


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277972 -

You do realize that moving to another country doesn't exempt you from the requirement to pay U.S. taxes, right?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19277973 -

Enlil said:
*you're

And I was talking ABOUT you...not to you.



I know the difference and I hate to break it to you buddy but your spelling and grammar isn't good enough for you to get all high and mighty about others.

and I don't care who you were talking to or about I'll speak my mind as I please


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19277974 -

Enlil said:
You do realize that moving to another country doesn't exempt you from the requirement to pay U.S. taxes, right?


You do realize there are legal ways to not pay taxes to the US government for the rest of your life right?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19277982 -

By your logic, rape victims are responsible for being raped because they didn't die in the process of fighting it...Being forced to do something under threat of violence isn't doing it "willfully", regardless or how you need it to be in order for your convoluted, absurd theory to be even close to valid.

Society is responsible for the wars, sure.  Individuals within that collective society, however, may or may not be responsible.  Your inability to wrap your head around this concept makes the discussion pointless.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19277998 -

Enlil said:
By your logic, rape victims are responsible for being raped because they didn't die in the process of fighting it...Being forced to do something under threat of violence isn't doing it "willfully", regardless or how you need it to be in order for your convoluted, absurd theory to be even close to valid.

Society is responsible for the wars, sure.  Individuals within that collective society, however, may or may not be responsible.  Your inability to wrap your head around this concept makes the discussion pointless.



Every analogy that every person has posted in this thread has been to pathetic. Rape victims don't have a choice. you on the other hand do have a choice. It doesn't matter how much you pretend you don't you in fact do, and you willfully chosen to support this government after it committed the acts that you were against. Which I'm truly fine with. You just shouldn't act like you have some high horse to sit on because that makes you a hypocrite

I'll ask you again. You do realize there are legal ways that you don't have to pay the US government taxes for the rest of your life don't you? Yeah, like I said willfull financial support


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19278009 -

People born in the U.S. don't have a choice either.  You just think they do.  Frankly, the majority of the world doesn't have a choice.  Almost everyone in every industrialized country is supporting the war under your theory because their actions ultimately support the U.S. government financially.

You're living in a boolean dream world that doesn't exist.  You've dug your heels into your position and you're unable to think clearly about it anymore. You keep repeating the same shit over and over as if that makes it more true or valid.  Really, you're just making an absurd philosophical point that has zero basis in truth or reality.

Again, we've gone in circles quite enough here.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19278034 -

Enlil said:
People born in the U.S. don't have a choice either.  You just think they do.  Frankly, the majority of the world doesn't have a choice.  Almost everyone in every industrialized country is supporting the war under your theory because their actions ultimately support the U.S. government financially.

You're living in a boolean dream world that doesn't exist.  You've dug your heels into your position and you're unable to think clearly about it anymore. You keep repeating the same shit over and over as if that makes it more true or valid.  Really, you're just making an absurd philosophical point that has zero basis in truth or reality.

Again, we've gone in circles quite enough here.



Have we gone around enough? Did I invite you back to the conversation? I don't care if you participate in it or not

You do have a choice. Are you not going acknowledge that there are ways to not pay the US government taxes for the rest of your life? That's what makes it willful. No matter how much you lie about not having a choice it's still a lie. You have other choices you've just obviously decided those other choices were unacceptable to you


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19278056 -

Simplicitry said:
Did I invite you back to the conversation?


Yes, when you said:

Simplicitry said:
Please explain how for me and the other readers.



--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19278060 -

Enlil said:
Simplicitry said:
Did I invite you back to the conversation?


Yes, when you said:

Simplicitry said:
Please explain how for me and the other readers.



No, you had already come back dropping my name at that point


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19278064 -

are you not going to acknowledge the fact that there are legal ways to not pay the US government taxes for the rest of your life?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19278073 -

It's possible if "the rest of your life" is measured in minutes and seconds, sure.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19278084 -

Enlil said:
It's possible if "the rest of your life" is measured in minutes and seconds, sure.


You are unaware that there are former citizens of the United States that no longer have to pay US taxes? Because if you are you shouldn't be.

and any amount of time can be measured in minutes and seconds :laugh2:


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19278092 -

I seriously doubt that there are any former citizens of the united states that do not willingly engage in conduct that leads to more U.S. taxes being paid.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19278107 -

Enlil said:
I seriously doubt that there are any former citizens of the united states that do not willingly engage in conduct that leads to more U.S. taxes being paid.


That would be their choice, and I couldn't care less. But if they are generating revenues for the US government and they have no high horse to sit on when it comes to us armed conflict or the US military.

The point is they have a choice just like you. Wether or not they're hypocritical like you are about it is another question altogether


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19278120 -

The only way it would be possible is to live off the land in a foreign wilderness.  That would do more harm than good because that person would be disenfranchised from the society and unable to work toward ending the wars. 

Paying taxes isn't a choice, but if it were, having a small portion of one's taxes going to an unjust war is minimal compared to taking steps to end those wars.  If one must contribute a penny in order to have the voice to be able to change things, then that's the price of making a positive difference. 

Make no mistake, the wars won't end because people hiding in the forests want them to.  They will only end when people with a voice use those voices.  Opting out provides more support for the war than opting in and using one's voice to end those wars.

Having said all of that, there is no opting out of funding the U.S. government.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



Edited by Enlil (12/15/13 08:05 AM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19278195 -

Simplicitry said:
Icelander said:
Most of the people I know in the military went in for the money and education.


That's a good reason to join. I can find no fault in that. I've said in this thread already. But just to clarify, I've never been the kind of person that thought that someone should be put on a pedestal just for joining the armed services.


It's not a good reason imo when you consider the rest of what I said in that post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19278819 -

Enlil said:
The only way it would be possible is to live off the land in a foreign wilderness.


No. Just emigrate and renounce your US citizenship. Lots of people do that every year to avoid paying US taxes.

I swear I am not making this up.


Phred


--------------------

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19278904 -

Nonetheless, money they spend goes to businesses that pay U.S. taxes.  Under Simplicitry's crazy logic, that means they're supporting the war.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19279068 -

Even when renouncing and leaving, the IRS hits you with one final tax. Benjamin Franklin was right, death and taxes...

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19279108 -

are people in France responsible for the war because they have the choice to take up arms against the United States in opposition yet they don't?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19279119 -

They're responsible because they continue to buy Jerry Lewis movies, thus increasing profits for American businesses and increasing taxes.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19279122 -

You shouldn't even acknowledge him when he says stupid shit like that

Apparently he has never spoken to a lawyer.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19279965 -

Enlil said:
Nonetheless, money they spend goes to businesses that pay U.S. taxes.  Under Simplicitry's crazy logic, that means they're supporting the war.



I will define my own stance. You are a hypocrite. A man has to buy what he has to buy, but You living blissfully here means you haven't tried very hard to minimize your financial support of the evil you rail against others about. Why ?something is more important to you. As such you contribute as much if not more to the war cause then some low level idiot in military who performs menial non combat related tasks. No high horse to sit on buddy


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19279975 -

psyconaught said:
are people in France responsible for the war because they have the choice to take up arms against the United States in opposition yet they don't?


Just stop with the failing analogies already :facepalm: they all fail. France is a sovereign nation and taxpayers are just that. And nobody was talking about taking up arms against the US government. Just stop already, let us talk in real terms


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #19280005 -

Simplicitry said:
psyconaught said:
are people in France responsible for the war because they have the choice to take up arms against the United States in opposition yet they don't?


Just stop with the failing analogies already :facepalm: they all fail. France is a sovereign nation and taxpayers are just that. And nobody was talking about taking up arms against the US government. Just stop already, let us talk in real terms


the french have the ability to fight against U.S war. Are frenchman who have the choice to take up arms against the united states but don't supporting the war?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19280048 -

psyconaught said:
Simplicitry said:
psyconaught said:
are people in France responsible for the war because they have the choice to take up arms against the United States in opposition yet they don't?


Just stop with the failing analogies already :facepalm: they all fail. France is a sovereign nation and taxpayers are just that. And nobody was talking about taking up arms against the US government. Just stop already, let us talk in real terms


the french have the ability to fight against U.S war. Are frenchman who have the choice to take up arms against the united states but don't supporting the war?


This analogy is too stupid to even discuss. France is part of Nato. France participated in the wars. I'll talk to you in real terms all you want. But not this way, it's counterproductive and a waste of both our time


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19282867 -

Gentlemen lets keep the discussion on U.S. policies/personnel in 2002-2013

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