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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #25956040 -

These 'masks' we have I might think of as Machiavellian strategies, including deception, manipulation, alliance formation, and exploitation of the expertise of others etc. These strategies can be used as a means of improving social and reproductive success, though their uses include coping with environmental, ecological, technological, linguistic, and other challenges.

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The “Machiavellian intelligence” hypothesis (or the “social brain” hypothesis) posits that large brains and distinctive cognitive abilities of humans have evolved via intense social competition in which social competitors developed increasingly sophisticated “Machiavellian” strategies as a means to achieve higher social and reproductive success.

In humans, the brain is very expensive metabolically: it represents ≈2% of the body's weight but utilizes ≈20% of total body metabolism at rest. The two burning questions are what factors drove the evolution of brain size and why our ancestors 50,000 years ago needed the brains they had. A number of potential answers have been hotly debated focusing on the effects of climatic, ecological, and social factors. One controversial set of ideas coming under the rubric of the “Machiavellian intelligence” or “social brain” hypothesis identifies selective forces resulting from social competitive interactions as the most important factor in the evolution of hominids, who at some point in the past became an ecologically dominant species. These forces selected for more and more effective strategies of achieving social success (including deception, manipulation, alliance formation, exploitation of the expertise of others, etc.) and for ability to learn and use them. The social success translated into reproductive success selecting for larger and more complex brains. Once a tool for inventing, learning, and using these strategies (i.e., a complex brain) is in place, it can be used for a variety of other purposes including coping with environmental, ecological, technological, linguistic, and other challenges.



The learning ability and cerebral capacity are described respectively as how easily the brain can learn new strategies, and how many the brain can host. So we have these strategies and we have an idea of how they can be useful to us and what potential they have as a part of the history of our intellectual evolution. As this paper hints to, this does not explain why a cognitive explosion within the human lineage occurred in the first place. It only suggests that there was one and that there were likely evolutionary mechanisms at play.

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The model studied here is based on a notion of “cerebral capacity” as a measure of the number of different memes/ideas/strategies that the brain can learn socially and use. This measure is analogous to “carrying capacity” used in ecology to characterize the number of individuals that can survive in a given ecological niche. During the cognitive explosion phase, the cerebral capacity evolves faster and to a larger degree than learning ability. Both the average Machiavellian fitness and the average number of memes per individual achieved during the cognitive explosion phase are largely controlled by the average cerebral capacity. The importance of cerebral capacity in our model suggests that incorporation of this notion into theoretical and empirical studies of cognitive processes can potentially be very beneficial.

The model studied here aims to describe only some aspects of the early stages of the evolution of intelligence. The model should not be applied directly to actual human history and society. Our model does not aim to explain why a cognitive explosion has occurred only in the lineage leading to modern Homo sapiens. Rather, it tests whether a particular set of explanations advanced and discussed in detail by many, which places special emphasis on the achievement of “ecological dominance” and on competition in regard to social competencies, is plausible from the population genetics perspective. Alternative explanations do exist, and much more work remains necessary to better understand the origins of human uniqueness. As with most other mathematical models used in evolutionary biology, the goal of our model is not to prove that a particular phemomena arises as a result of particular factors. Rather, we wished to explore the logic and plausibility of the arguments used to explain the phenomenon, to identify important factors, parameters, and time scales, and to check the robustness of conclusions to variation in assumptions.



Quote:
Overall, our results suggest that the mechanisms underlying the “Machiavellian intelligence” hypothesis can indeed result in the evolution of significant cognitive abilities on the time scale of 10 to 20 thousand generations.

https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/16823



It should come as no surprise that evolutionary mechanisms were suggested to play a role in cognitive evolution. Evolutionary mechanisms that lead to the cognitive explosion of the human lineage were not specified in the above paper and this is where I'd like to make my own suggestions, my 2c.

I'm coming to think that co-evolutionary happenings had a role to play. To give an example first, one could ask; Did evolved tools make us smarter, or did we evolve to become smart enough to make tools? 

And the answer is that it is a co-evolutionary thing, a sort of bootstrapping thing where we get a little bit smarter, smart enough to make tools and then those tools make us smarter so, building and building and building.

My thoughts are that perhaps like with human intelligence and tool use, Machiavellian strategies and self-domestication made it easier for us to communicate with one another and cohabit within complex societies.

In a similar way to how a wolf became a dog, perhaps it too is how an ape became a human.
 

Quote:
Another theory that tries to explain the growth of human intelligence is the reduced aggression theory (aka self-domestication theory). According to this strand of thought what led to the evolution of advanced intelligence in Homo sapiens was a drastic reduction of the aggressive drive. This change separated us from other species of monkeys and primates, where this aggressivity is still in plain sight, and eventually lead to the development of quintessential human traits such as empathy, social cognition and culture. This theory has received strong support from studies of animal domestication where selective breeding for tameness has, in only a few generations, led to the emergence of impressive “humanlike” abilities. Tamed foxes, for example, exhibit advanced forms of social communication (following pointing gestures), pedomorphic physical features (childlike faces, floppy ears) and even rudimentary forms of theory of mind (eye contact seeking, gaze following). Evidence also comes from the field of ethology (which is the study of animal behavior, focused on observing species in their natural habitat rather than in controlled laboratory settings) where it has been found that animals with a gentle and relaxed manner of interacting with each other – like for example stumptailed macaques, orangutans and bonobos – have more advanced socio-cognitive abilities than those found among the more aggressive chimpanzees and baboons. It is hypothesized that these abilities derive from a selection against aggression.

On a mechanistic level these changes are believed to be the result of a systemic downregulation of the sympathetic nervous system (the fight-or-flight reflex). Hence, tamed foxes show a reduced adrenal gland size and have an up to fivefold reduction in both basal and stress-induced blood cortisol levels. Similarly, domesticated rats and guinea pigs have both reduced adrenal gland size and reduced blood corticosterone levels.[33][34] It seems as though the neoteny of domesticated animals significantly prolongs the immaturity of their hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal system (which is otherwise only immature for a short period when they are pups/kittens) and this opens up a larger ”socialization window” during which they can learn to interact with their caretakers in a more relaxed way.

This downregulation of sympathetic nervous system reactivity is also believed to be accompanied by a compensatory increase in a number of opposing organs and systems. Although these are not as well specified various candidates for such “organs” have been proposed: the parasympathetic system as a whole, the septal area over the amygdala, the oxytocin system, the endogenous opioids and various forms of quiescent immobilization which antagonize the fight-or-flight reflex.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FB%3ARUGE.0000033312.92773.c1




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (04/26/19 04:38 AM)

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: sudly]
    #25956626 -

Evolution is complex, so even if you see a nice graphic chart with arrows pointing from a wolf to a dog, you should know that a wolf did not as such become a dog.

When dogs did descend from the ancient mutated wolf-ish lineage, that atavistic wolf lineage was not identical to the current post branched wolf line.

Cognition is a bit more complex than simple evolution (particularly when considering the variety of cognitive results from some few basic functions (note the brain is still not well understood)).

I think it is better to back away from evolutionary concepts when examining cognition especially as  common use of the word evolve is directed towards more everyday learning and behavior improvement, completely missing the whole selection + mutation + speciation phenomenon that is core to evolution in the world of science.

Some enterprising visionaries are still pushing the term "meme" as a cognitive correlate to "gene" and this actually creates more muddiness in both the world of evolution and in the world of cognition.

So I present my more skeptical mask at your fanciful projections introducing evolutionary process to this discussion of honesty and deception, which is where most people park the idea of "wearing a mask".


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25958082 -

I think you've over simplified and nigh on passed straight over my entire viewpoint on the matter of cognitive evolution. You couldn't possible think I meant a wolf becomes a dog straightforwardly as so.

My point was that ancestral wolves were domesticated, and maybe that the way in which they were domesticated to be less aggressive is something that shouldn't be overlooked.

Quote:
Redgreenvines said: I think it is better to back away from evolutionary concepts when examining cognition especially as common use of the word evolve is directed towards more everyday learning and behavior improvement, completely missing the whole selection + mutation + speciation phenomenon that is core to evolution in the world of science.



I think the worst thing anyone can do in regard to finding answers about the evolution of cognition is to back away from evolutionary concepts.

The common use of the word evolve that you described is better explained as the development and improvement of learning ability and cerebral capacity.

Evolutionary concepts deal with the whole selection/mutation and speciation phenomenon.

Certain factors like reduced aggression and better communication strategies are inherently likely to be selected through evolutionary processes as those social successes often lead to reproductive success. 

While I don't prefer the word meme, in the paper I cited the word is referred as analogous to the learning of ideas and strategies. It also posits how these can lead to reproductive success.
Quote:
In the model, genes control brains which invent and learn strategies (memes) which are used by males to gain advantage in competition for mates.



Machiavellian strategies and memes alike are inclusive of honesty and deception as they are methods by which we attain social coherence. And somewhere down the track we learnt to cooperate, unlike we see in many of the animals around us. To think about the social strategies we've learnt, the behaviours we've expressed and the ways in which we handle ourselves and how they may relate to evolutionary processes like a reduction in aggression is an imperative to any meaningful discussion on this topic. 

You say we wear masks, I say we implore strategies.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: sudly]
    #25960520 -

note that religious sanctity, and observance of tradition will also normally lead to reproductive success, as will cold hard cash.

cut through the tangle of fuzzy misappropriations of words

Your evolutionary tangent here is interesting, but no work that I have seen to date has a coherent approach encompassing these three: mind, intelligence, and speciation.

anyway, if you want to redefine the meaning of scientific terms, do so at the top of your page, and to be fair, when monkey patching an object to hold your new meaning, first create a shelf copy with a new name such as Basic Evolution = Evolution as it is used in Science, and then define your new meaning, leaving a clear path back to common ratified understandings.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25961180 -

Alliance formation, traditional marriage and the likes can lead to reproductive success, Machiavellian strategies are largely encompassing.

I wasn’t aware you could buy reproductive success.. 

All I’ve suggested is that maybe the two phenomena of Machiavellian strategies and reduced aggression are related.

And I’m sorry but what scientific meaning do you think I am trying to redefine now?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: sudly]
    #25962114 -

the comment before your defense (none needed) relates to extending the definition of evolution to include behavior, attitude, or thinking - all of which are still quite loosely scientific (especially wrt prehistory).

if you want to extend the term "evolution" to include strands that depend upon soft facts (eg. speculations on prehistorical behavior and thinking), then first shelve "evolution" clearly under the new name you have given it, and then proceed with your foray into the twilight zones.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25962619 -

Which comment?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: sudly]
    #25963788 -



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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: Jewstress] * 1
    #25963806 -

Jewstress said:
I purposefully isolate from people in every aspect possible.

I find 90% of my interactions with anyone outside of my immediate family to be very frustrating.



And yet here you are....


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25964665 -

You said this before the comment you just linked..
Quote:
anyway, if you want to redefine the meaning of scientific terms, do so at the top of your page,



So if it’s so clear to you I’ve redefined the meaning of a scientific term, could you please be so kind as to point it out.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: sudly]
    #25965027 -

Well, the way I think about it, the mask is just another word for our Ego. You have your soul, your root, the deep part of yourself and then there is the Ego / surface portion of you that you show to other people in the world and you sort of create this idea of what "you" are and make decisions in (or out) of society that best represent your idea of yourself. In other words, you show others a certain idea of yourself, what you want to show them, that aligns with what they think your personality is and what type of personality you are trying to put out there. Some of us are just ourselves and nothing more, but most of us are one thing and portray another. Why? It's easier-- mentally and emotionally-- in this form of society. Unfortunate :frown: we've supported and nourished personality plasticity. Time for reformation


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"When a man is denied the right to live the life he believes in, he has no choice but to become an outlaw." - Nelson Mandela

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25965670 -

You described the word evolve as everyday learning and behaviour improvement.

I described it as development of learning, inclusive of selection.

The word evolve means to develop gradually.

If there is a redefinition of scientific terms somewhere within my texts, I do not see it elsewhere than in your hopes.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: Spiralspider]
    #25966376 -

A 'mask' is a part of the ego.

A 'mask' suggests a false front.

People can otherwise utilize their ego in a manner which is genuine - the 'ID' as it might be regarded by some.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (05/01/19 02:05 PM)

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: porter]
    #25966440 -

@ porter -- each mask is more like a complex of attitudes and behaviors, and ego or id, since there really is no ego, (people tend to use that term to isolate those masks which they detest in general) is the set of all the masks a person has (i.e. all of their attitudes and behaviors).


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: sudly]
    #25966453 -

@ sudly,
I do not ever use the term evolve to mean anything the same as learn.
that is plain wrong.
evolution is about changes in populations that occur when individuals survive genetic mutation and actually benefit enough from their altered DNA that they become more successful, competitive, beautiful, or hardy, and by breeding produce new species.

that is simple enough, but specific enough that when the term is used in other ways people forget the whole thing about speciation, and some even believe that volition is involved in evolution which drives the conversation backwards into the domain of intelligent design, or magical thinking.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25968321 -

I can see that you think the word evolve is commonly used to mean learning and behaviour development without the inclusion of evolutionary phenomena like selection, mutation and speciation.

What isn’t clear is what scientific term has been redefined so I’ll ask it again as clearly as possible.

Which scientific term has been redefined?

Nature and nurture doesn’t have to be black and white.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Do we all wear a "mask" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25973078 -

I use the word evolve the same as develop.
And if you think that is redefining the word then that is plain wrong.

Evolution is about changes in populations that occur when individuals survive beneficial genetic mutations, but what you're missing is that there are more than one way in which beneficial mutations can come about.

What you've said is too simple and not specific enough. To evolve is an incredibly encompassing word and if someone forgets about speciation and mutation it's on them, not the word.

And volition only brings the conversation backwards to intelligent design and magical thinking if you're already inclined to believe so, if you're under the impression you can not become enlightened and develop as a person.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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