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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8537172 -

Yes, and this is an example of the internal consistency of his delusion, not of the use of logic.  A logical argument fails when a premise is false, no matter how true the arguer may believe it to be.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537212 -

Veritas said:
Yes, and this is an example of the internal consistency of his delusion,


Human life, time, memory and our senses may be nothing more than a consistency of delusion. "I" am personally convinced that personality and ego are nothing more than consistent delusions.

Quote:
not of the use of logic.


I'm sorry but I am failing to see how the delusional homeless man is not using logic. The garbage makes the demons go away. Isn't that logic at work? If I am misunderstanding logic than please provide an example of logic at work.

Quote:
A logical argument fails when a premise is false, no matter how true the arguer may believe it to be.


But your reasoning here is based on a belief that we are in fact capable of some sort of universal truth, which earlier in this thread you admitted is information that humans don't have access to.

In the case of the delusional bum, we have the luxury of being able to observe where his delusions exist. We can observe that there are no winged demons flying about his head. Yet the delusional man only has his senses to rely upon. He is trapped within a bubble in which his sense tell him that demons exist. Why should he not trust his senses?

Now think of all humanity as being trapped in a similar bubble. We can use our senses and perform tests to prove that gravity exists in our knowable universe. How do we know we aren't in a similar bubble, and outside of it there is someone else saying "what a bunch of crazy schmucks. There is no such thing as gravity. I can't believe they even think that they are standing on solid ground!"

No matter how true we believe matter to be "solid," if this is a belief that is based on delusional human sense and is indeed a false premise (as kinda sorta suggested by string theory), would that render us illogical to believe that if we hit a baseball with a bat it will (hopefully) fly out of Fenway?

I believe in logic as a useful tool, perhaps the most useful us humans have, but not for one second do I assume that logic makes any sense beyond the tiny realm of human existence. That would have to be based upon a faith that my senses are not delusional, and, by logic's own rules, would necessitate some sort of proof that this whole carnival ride isn't a false premise to begin with.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537227 -

Quote:
A logical argument fails when a premise is false



Here comes the firecracker: We can NEVER have absolute certainty which premise is false or correct. Our senses may feed us nothing but delusions with internal consistencies.

Logic itself may be an efficient way to deal with potentially delusional feed from our senses, but it may stand completely apart from an underlying reality.

Because we have no certainty a premise is true or false, all we have to feed Logic is BELIEFS and we BELIEVE Logic will serve us with it.


Quote:
IMO, blind faith in anything is a cognitive box.  Unless we continue to examine, test, try, analyze, experience, consider, criticize, weigh, sift, and weed out self-induced delusions, our understanding of reality will be limited. 


:cheer: exactly what I myself believe in, Veritas. But logic might not be the way, just a way, that may turn out to be delusional in itself.

Think about it.. All your "examine, test, try, analyze, experience, consider, criticize, weigh, sift, and weed out self-induced delusions" for naught :eek:

Factor it in, the possibility that ALL is illusory.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (06/18/08 02:04 PM)

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8537240 -

It is impossible to verify that there is a system in which natural laws do not apply, so the reasonable assumption is that they apply in every system.  Until such time as we can test this hypothesis in the alternate universe outside the "bubble" you've proposed, we shall have to rely upon our working theory.

In THIS reality, the means wherein one verifies or disproves a premise is through testing and third-party replication of one's results.  Your homeless man might be able to produce tests regarding demons which would satisfy his addled mind, but would be unable to verify his premise through third-party replication.

Please note that he apparently believed his demons to be visible to you, as he pointed out the "proof" of the efficacy of his garbage potion.  This type of claim is falsifiable, as contrasted with claims such as "my soul is bright purple with orange polka-dots."  Had you and others refused to corroborate the visible presence of demons, it would be clear that his premise was false.

This method of verification may not amount to "universal knowledge," but it is the most-accurate method of exploring the material world.  Intuition is quite useful for exploring inner realms of experience, but not accurate in exploring outer realms.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8537249 -

Quote:
Factor it in, the possibility that ALL is illusory.


OK, if all is illusory, and therefore created by our perceptions, will the rules still apply when one cannot perceive?  If one cannot see a brick wall, will they still bloody their nose when they walk into it?

BTW, I never proposed that logic is THE tool for experiencing reality.  IMO, it is THE tool for exploring material reality, and quite useful for exposing delusion and irrationality.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537273 -

Quote:
OK, if all is illusory, and therefore created by our perceptions, will the rules still apply when one cannot perceive?  If one cannot see a brick wall, will they still bloody their nose when they walk into it?


You are trying to make sense of it :smile: We don't even know if there is such a thing as us/our. All separating barriers could be illusory. We assume a lot but we don't know anything for certain.


Quote:
It is impossible to verify



Every single thing is impossible to verify vs an objective truth.

Quote:
In THIS reality, the means wherein one verifies or disproves a premise is through testing and third-party replication of one's results.


Now you are saying you'll go for second best because the very best is unnatainable.

And thats fine, but REALIZE it is only SECOND BEST. Realize you're building on a leap of faith, which is the foundation of all your logic.

Beliefs are at the basis. There's no rock solid truth available to us.

We are masturbating. We fiddle with our nifty concepts and it makes us feel good. And there's nothing wrong with that provided you don't take it 100% seriously.

Realize we have no certainty whatsoever, and with that realization in place choose what you want to do, and lose yourself to it for the full 99% you can be certain of anything.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (06/18/08 02:24 PM)

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8537285 -

You are presuming that a 'best' method of exploring reality exists, and that it would yield significantly different results than can be achieved through logic.  :shrug:

I am fully aware of the fact that we cannot be 100% certain, and have never claimed otherwise.  However, I DO think that we can expose some possibilities as being much less likely than others through the use of logic.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537554 -

You are presuming that a 'best' method of exploring reality exists, and that it would yield significantly different results than can be achieved through logic.

exploring the depths of direct experience brings an understanding of the world and existence that cannot be achieved through logic.  logic is secondary to direct experience.  it is useful, but it won't do any good for us personally if we fail to gain some understand of ourselves before we set out to explain the world.

take a man who has been studying logic his whole life, yet has not discovered how shaped and confined he is by language.  he may seem completely logical and rational, yet in reality the veil of illusion masks his ability to realize the inner potential of his awareness, which is the base of our reality.  this is not rationality in the sense of lucidity, it is an act of illusion, played out like it is truth of the highest order. 

the problem is not with logic, but our identification with it and ability to see through it.  imo the realest of understanding comes through developing self-awareness.  this is primary, language is secondary.  logic is but a tool to conceptually understand ourselves and the world.  it is a mental process and nothing more.  it is a projection, not direct understanding.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8537598 -

As I said, intuition is the tool of choice for the inner realms, but logic is preferable for the outer realms.  What I was responding to was the suggestion that a method of obtaining Absolute Knowledge existed, and that it would differ from the knowledge acquired through a logical process of discernment of what our senses perceive.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537671 -

absolute knowledge is too far, i cant reach it :grin:

but i still think that understanding of the inner shapes our perception of the outer.  logic is great, but as a language it is but a secondary form of knowledge.  awareness is direct knowledge, perhaps this is what Wiccan meant by absolute.

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8537707 -

Logic is not a form of knowledge, nor a form of gathering knowledge.  We gather knowledge through our senses, and interpret that knowledge with our thoughts.  When our interpretations veer too far from a factual basis, logic is the means to re-orient them to reality.  IMO, there is no such thing as direct knowledge, as we always filter incoming information (perception, not reception).

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8538003 -

IMO, there is no such thing as direct knowledge, as we always filter incoming information (perception, not reception).

i guess what i mean by direct knowledge is exeriencing before much of the conditioned filtering takes place.  not a knowledge to be gained from the outside but from within.  sure there will always be these filters, but they can be altered to allow reality to be more directly experienced.  this may bring a more wholesome view of the world, and allow for a greater understanding of it. 

sure logic is not knowledge, but it is still of language.  using logic to align your interpretations with reality, when none of us have the slightest clue of what reality is, makes me raise my brow :shrug:

Edited by SyntheticMInd (06/18/08 06:01 PM)

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8538373 -

Quote:
using logic to align your interpretations with reality, when none of us have the slightest clue of what reality is, makes me raise my brow


OK, now transmit that thought to us WITHOUT USING A LOGIC-BASED DEVICE.


--------------------

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8538606 -

Quote:
perhaps this is what Wiccan meant by absolute.



Nope, I meant Absolute Knowledge in the sense of having the absolute truth and knowing it, and Total Knowledge in the sense that one has access to the knowledge behind everything.

I'm not saying humans can attain this, but it definitely would completely do away with the need for logic.

Logic runs after the fact and tries to approximate it. Absolute Knowledge is knowing the fact, for a fact.

We can only be very sure of things. The Large Hadron Collider crew is Very Sure their endeavor won't bring about the end of the world.

I don't think the end will come through the LHC but there you have the essence of the matter.

You have the greatest minds in science today working on a project and they say things that they are Very Sure it won't be the end of the world, and the official statement that if a stable black hole does form, it will Very Probably not destroy the earth before the sun will.

They do not say "that will never happen!" or "there is zero chance of that happening!" because they are too good scientists to do that.

Science APPROXIMATES the truth but there is never absolute certainty unless you HAVE the truth, have attained Total Knowledge.

Total Knowledge isn't just completing the equasion that tells you how stuff works basically, Total Knowledge is being able to account for the location, origin and fate of every particle and photon in the entire universe at any point and time.

Intuitively you would think of some huge Artificial Intelligence linked up to thousands of servers and sources as the holder of Total Knowledge, but perhaps some alien is doing it naturally with it's biological mind. Maybe there's a formula to the Universe which, if you approach it with the right variables gives you all the answers you seek.

A little alien hummingbird could have it hardwired into its little brain as a coping strategy to ALWAYS find the flower with the best honey in flying range, instead of the logic we use. That little hummingbird would be lightyears ahead of us in evolution.

Even bolder, perhaps WE have this structure hardwired in our brains, or are close to it, with some exceptional historical figures making some legendary connections through that mechanism. Its just a nice thought :grin:

I'm pretty sure that after the Era of Logic comes the Era of Knowing. A way of thinking that doesn't require you to approximate the facts, but merely to remember them.

Total Knowledge doesn't mean each and every thing must be stored and catalogued. It can be a system that converts, like a fractal formula of reality itself. It might even fit on a CD or even a piece of paper, the coded essence of it.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (06/18/08 09:17 PM)

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8538613 -

i'm all for logic, but that's wayy aside from the point...

logic is our creation.  indulging too much in what we have created and relying solely on this as a means to understand existence will only take one so far...

into maya.

Quote:
the problem is not with logic, but our identification with it and ability to see through it.


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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8538674 -

Quote:
logic is our creation.


Actually logic predates the human species. Chimpanzees use logic:

Banana in tree! --> too high --> get stick, hit banana --> Yummy!

Seagulls use logic:

Oyster! --> hard shell --> drop oyster from the sky on rocks --> yummy!

Logic likely is a likely mechanism of action of neural nets as they exist in the life on earth. A common ancestor could have gotten a logic-mutation or its inherent to the structures of our neural nets.

But, its a big universe out there. Zillions of planets, zillions of years. We can assume we are not the only game in town, just like carbon-based life probably isn't the only game in town. We see it our way because thats our nature, but there may be other possibilities, some superior.

A logical successor to Logic is Total Knowledge, and it can happen in our lifetime, in the form of an AI or a genius university student grabbing a crayon and writing the equasion on the board that legends are made of.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8538677 -

:lol: ok we're off, yet there's certainly a parallel if you hadn't noticed.

here, you'll probably need this:


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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8538720 -

Quote:
ok we're off



So many true believers in Pure Logic, so little time :heart:




--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8538806 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Oyster! --> hard shell --> drop oyster from the sky on rocks --> yummy!


Slight tangent, but I think it was either ravens or crows that drop a hard shelled nut onto pavement to get it to break....

Then they were later noticed calculatedly dropping them into the painted cross walks on busy streets....
The cars would run them over, breaking the shells....
Then when the traffic stopped, they would fly in for the exposed food....

People driving cars is but a tool for a hungry bird....!?    :what:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8538854 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
OK, now transmit that thought to us WITHOUT USING A LOGIC-BASED DEVICE.


The silence gets us nowhere, way to fast....

See the synchronicities....!?
I am listening to "Staind" right now, what are the chances....!?

:grin:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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