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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: ]
    #1740614 - 07/23/03 09:13 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I believe that logic and intuition (read: creativity) both play their respective roles. Organized Chaos I like to call it. While God may not play dice.. he certainly does own a set..

The Universe does indeed follow a 'divine plan', which to some could be labeled as 'logical'. Endless Creation through the most outstanding and sometimes obscure methods as possible. Part of this order, however, is chaos and destruction. Things can and cannot be at the same time.. depending on your perspective.

So I agree, and I disagree.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: ]
    #1740644 - 07/23/03 09:29 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

does the independent reality MM is talking about = absolutism (in morality) vs. the "idealistic" stance of relativism?

we spend alot of time arguing about relative.absolute morality last semester, so I tend to look for them in everything.... ?


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: ]
    #1741275 - 07/23/03 01:23 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

M_M: The principle should be understood as attributing uncertainty only to our measurements in quantum mechanics.
...
That uncertainty, which is epistemic, or in our field of knowing, is fallaciously converted into an indeterminacy in the structure of reality, which then becomes ontological, not epistemic.


This is true... we can't know FOR SURE if this uncertainty is an objective truth about reality or merely a flaw in our ability to take measurements.  However, should we necessarily assume the opposite (determinism) merely because we can't verify our measurements absolutely?  I think not, bro.

Moving along, one of the primary reasons I support the notion of free will and indeterminacy (as you're calling it here) is because of it's practical implications.  And I'm not talking about the libertarian objections.  I'm talking about my FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE.  Hell, even Descartes knew it was unreasonable to assume (you DON'T have proof, right?) that an evil demon of some sort was tricking him into believing that he was actually thinking [on his own].

Agree or dissagree?

I disagree... obviously.

trendel: M-Theory, Superstrings, GUTs, and Unified Fields. They're all examples of the underlying symmetries found by physics working backwards.
DoctorJ: they are all crappy, incomplete theories that will eventually be wiped off the blackboard and replaced with some new trendy incomplete theory.

I, too, think a little research into the history of scientific progress reveals such a pattern.  Then again... maybe atoms really are like raisin pudding. :wink:

grandmasterfat: I think humans are very arrogant in the fact that they think they can grasp the ultimate truth through their imperfect minds.

Exactly.  Egocentrism.


M_M, I'm not really sure what I think about that article.  It's pretty much intelligent rhetoric.  On an interesting note, the author's condemnation of "them" is in a completely abstract manner, thus a refutation isn't really possible.  The author seems to be against dogmatic thinking and whatnot (which is good), but without actual examples, I can't say I agree or disagree with him. 


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: ]
    #1741310 - 07/23/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For more read here.




Great link! The author seems a bit pedantic from what I've read so far, but he raises a lot of interesting questions.

My previous post didn't address your actual point. But I think I agree with it.

From an ontological point of view, quantum mechanics has been a catastrophe so far. From a pragmatic point of view however, it has been the most successful theory in history when it comes to precision in numerical predictions.

I think all of the founding fathers of quantum mechanics were aware of the ontological problems, but they struggled ahead anyway. When they said "there is no way you could even in principle predict when an individual radium atom decays", they meant that such predictions were not possible within the theory, as opposed to classically impossible predictions that are deterministic in principle (like for example the 3-body problem in the newtonian theory of gravitation).

Unfortunately, this has been misinterpreted to mean that the quantum randomness also has some kind of ontological significance.

Some physicists clearly subscribe to some sort of philosophical idealism, but they must also believe that there is some kind of objective reality that we can measure, otherwise they would quit being physicists and start working as New Age evangelists instead...

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1741326 - 07/23/03 01:37 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

And by the way...
The point(s) I was making have been missed by many, primarily because of their familiarity with science instead of philosophy.
...are pre-emptive down-players, though subtle, like this one really necessary?
There really shouldn't be a need to disqualify any opposition beforehand. :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1742061 - 07/23/03 05:50 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

It's nice to know we agree.

We never really had a chance to communicate in this forum so I thought after your rate I would take a little time and post something of interest to you.

Of all your statements this I find this one to be central to the issue:

Unfortunately, this has been misinterpreted to mean that the quantum randomness also has some kind of ontological significance.

Those who truly understand the foundations of philosophical realism, and I think I am in that camp, would heartily agree with that statement. I find it to be a good starting place for many avenues of thought.

I am glad we did this and happy you enjoyed the link. Dr. Larson is a favorite of mine whenever people start to lean too heavily on one interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Take care,

MM

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Anonymous

Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1742100 - 07/23/03 06:02 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
And by the way...
The point(s) I was making have been missed by many, primarily because of their familiarity with science instead of philosophy.
...are pre-emptive down-players, though subtle, like this one really necessary?
There really shouldn't be a need to disqualify any opposition beforehand. :wink:   




Oh no Sclorch, don't misunderstand me.  I wasn't necessarily disqualifying or down-playing anyone.  I was merely making an observation that most of us are trained in empirical science from grade school on.  Very few of us are familiar with logic or philosophy until we take it up in college.

And I don't have any qualms with indeterminacy per se.  I just don't use to to shore up idiotic philosophical notions like idealism.  Neither do my claims assign certitude to any of their values other than the most basic tenets of logic.

The physicists and dreamers (is there any difference?) can adhere to silly notions all they like.  I'll take pragmatic realism over them anyday. 

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: ]
    #1742305 - 07/23/03 06:53 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Well then... I'm glad I was only misunderstanding you.

I just don't use to to shore up idiotic philosophical notions like idealism.
Did you mean to say "...don't use IT to shore..."?  :confused:


The physicists and dreamers (is there any difference?) can adhere to silly notions all they like. I'll take pragmatic realism over them anyday.

Well, I'm not certain that "pragmatic realism" isn't a tad redundant... but yeah, idealism is for the egocentric, IMHO. hehehe


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Anonymous

Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1742862 - 07/23/03 09:10 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, that was a typo. It should have been 'it'.

Pragmatic realism is actually an offshoot of Jamesian philosophy. And while I don't agree with everything James says I do adhere to a good bit of it. Pragmatism has its roots in realism to some extent but the inverse isn't quite as true.

Sorry to screw up your title but I deleted my rate. (wink)

Now pardon me while I go back the Hunting forum.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: An example of using the principles of logic. [Re: ]
    #1743460 - 07/24/03 12:32 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Later.


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