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Sophistic Radiance
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pitfalls of logic *DELETED*
#7716448 - 12/04/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by Tchan909Reason for deletion: this post is stupid
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (12/04/07 05:14 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Unfortunately, logic is useless in spiritual endeavors. It cannot guide our perspective in finding peace with the universe. It cannot tell us who we are.
And where will illogic lead us?
*Shmoopy completely ignores the 'Bush is logical' towering strawman*
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The Bush argument was not a straw man. I simply feel that logic guides a lot of what he does, for better or for worse. I hoped it would illustrate my point that logic is best used as a tool and not as a way to determine how to live your life, but I guess it was sort of roundabout.
I mainly made this thread because of the rank Christian-bashing that has been lingering on the first page. Fundamentalists piss me off as much as next the joe, but I've seen blind faith save people's lives. It's all well and good to try and have a rational debate/discussion with one of those believers who won't listen to reason, but it's childish to trash his or her beliefs and it can really hurt people.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (12/04/07 05:51 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: The Bush argument was not a straw man. I simply feel that logic guides a lot of what he does, for better or for worse. I hoped it would illustrate my point that logic is best used as a tool and not as a way to determine how to live your life, but I guess it was sort of roundabout.
Where exactly do you see logic? And it is not to be confused with chains of explanation constructed in such a manner that they can influence the emotional and ignorant.
To make it more clear, let's see what logic stands for:
Quote:
logĀ·ic (lŏj'ĭk) Pronunciation Key n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning. 2. 1. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic. 2. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow. 3. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science. 4. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions. 5. Computer circuitry. 6. Graphic representation of computer circuitry. 3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis. 4. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic. 5. Computer Science 1. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions. 2. Computer circuitry. 3. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.
Now tell me, to which side does the logic belongs to? How come that people who decide to remain lucid and make use of critical thinking can detect the bull shit and strings of manipulation?
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Now tell me, to which side does the logic belongs to? How come that people who decide to remain lucid and make use of critical thinking can detect the bull shit and strings of manipulation?
Bush's actions are highly illogical as policy.
However, given his immediate life-situation, he made choices based on logic to determine his course. He doesn't care about the well-being of the nation (its policy), or whether we can smell his bullshit. It reeks to high hell but the stink hasn't stopped him from achieving his goals.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (12/04/07 06:13 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Now tell me, to which side does the logic belongs to? How come that people who decide to remain lucid and make use of critical thinking can detect the bull shit and strings of manipulation?
Bush's actions are highly illogical as policy.
However, given his immediate life-situation, he made choices based on logic to determine his course. He doesn't care about the well-being of the nation, or whether we can smell his bullshit. It reeks to high hell but the stink hasn't stopped him from achieving his goals.
Ok, let's make this clear. In your original post, you were outlining that using logic leads nowhere good, and your example was the Bush administration. So who are the ones at loss? Those who used logic or those who didn't?  If he doesn't care about the nation, then the nation must adapt, get wiser and use... logic into realizing where they did wrong when they chose this administration. The choice of taking care of ourselves as best as possible belongs to each of us, not to a form of govt or any other form of authority.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
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The problem is that people think in dualistic terms about logic: logical vs illogical. They don't grasp that there is a third category which is outside the realm of this duality.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: pitfalls of logic [Re: Silversoul]
#7716736 - 12/04/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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What does this outside the duality mean? How would you define it?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Unfortunately, logic is useless in spiritual endeavors. It cannot guide our perspective in finding peace with the universe. It cannot tell us who we are. It cannot make our hardest decisions for us. It certainly cannot make us happy. Our minds and our bodies are illogical machines, arrived at through billions of years of trial and error, and certainly not through any logical process. Beliefs are not logical, as our fundamentalist friends will indicate. That's because logic is a figment of the human imagination, as fictional and dangerous as the God who commanded His followers to drive the heathens out of the Holy Land (whoever the actual recipients of that message were, as I'm pretty sure God was telling both sides the same thing).
I fail to see how logic is the opposite of spirituality. Using logic leads one to an aware and real conclusion, and from what I know this is exactly the aim of spirituality. To contain a deeper level of knowledge. Where's the contradiction? Maybe those who call themselves spiritual and believe in hell and all the rest are not really spiritual, but full of shit. Ignorance is not spirituality.
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: If he doesn't care about the nation, then the nation must adapt, get wiser and use... logic into realizing where they did wrong when they chose this administration. The choice of taking care of ourselves as best as possible belongs to each of us, not to a form of govt or any other form of authority.
This is very true, thank you for reminding me of that. 
My statement is simply that logic as a way of life for an individual is flawed. I probably just used way too many words.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Silversoul
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: What does this outside the duality mean? How would you define it?
It is the non-logical. The realm to which logic does not apply. In fact, most of our decisions and preferences tend to fall in this category. Is it logical or illogical to prefer red over blue?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: pitfalls of logic [Re: Silversoul]
#7716801 - 12/04/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would be inclined to say that it is merely a matter of taste, of personal prefference. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that even what we call "taste" has it's logic.  I guess it would apply to this definition:
Quote:
The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.
Many times we are unable to detect why we prefer red over blue, but this doesn't mean that there's no explanation for it. And as long as there's an explanation it means that behind it there's a theory. And if there's a theory, there's logic.
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SoY
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: I fail to see how logic is the opposite of spirituality. Using logic leads one to an aware and real conclusion, and from what I know this is exactly the aim of spirituality. To contain a deeper level of knowledge.
Exactly. If you don't apply logic in your spiritual life, you end up believing in the flying spaghetti monster and hell, etc.
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: "But the more I think about it, the more I realize that even what we call "taste" has it's logic."
"Many times we are unable to detect why we prefer red over blue, but this doesn't mean that there's no explanation for it."
There is always a logical reasoning for everything. Some things/events we don't understand or seem illogical, but the sheer fact that they happen binds them to logic. The universe is incapable of behaving illogically.
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MushroomTrip
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Yes and I also argued about the opposition between spirituality and logic. Opposition which in my opinion doesn't exist. Also you really failed to show how logic is flawed. Also... what is spirituality in your view, since it comes as a contradiction to reasoning? From what it looks like, you confuse spirituality with the lack of knowledge?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: pitfalls of logic [Re: SoY]
#7716922 - 12/04/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The universe is incapable of behaving illogically.
Indeed.  The fact that we sometimes are unable to see the logic does not mean that there isn't any.
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All I know is when I try to use logic to figure out who I am or what course I should take in life it fails miserably. That probably just reflects poorly on my own logic, emphasized by the generalizations I made here.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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EternalCowabunga
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That's because logic cannot answer questions like that. Logic can't answer what perception is or pleasure or what to do in life - this is the goal of philosophy. And philosophy never has absolute answers, only logic does (although logic does inform philosophy). I believe it would be helpful to make a distinction between formal logic and philosophy.
Quote:
Logic is an indispensable tool to the philosopher; it is the means by which he examines his world and seeks to find the order in chaos.
Logic is indeed an valuable tool for philosophy but not for the reason you mentioned. You are referring to a more general reasoning which logic may inform, but is not the territory of logic. Reason is not always logical, and logic does not = reason.
Logic deals with mathematical values and the consistency of syllogisms in which philosophical arguments rely.
For example, All men are mortal Socrates is a man Therefore, Socrates is mortal
Logic is not concerned with the concept of mortality or manliness - it is concerned with the inference of "all" (or some, not, and, etc)
While philosophy has its own logic to it, it is of an informal kind.. I think what you are trying to do with "logic" is comparable to a soldier going into battle without learning drill movements first - there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to survive and maybe even fight well, but without some kind of foundation, his moves are not going to reflect his actual surroundings.
Do you think this could be true? Is it possible you're getting a little ahead of yourself?
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Icelander
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Unfortunately, logic is useless in spiritual endeavors. It cannot guide our perspective in finding peace with the universe. It cannot tell us who we are. It cannot make our hardest decisions for us. It certainly cannot make us happy.
None of this is true in my experience.
Our current administration is one of the most logical in our history.
A pretty silly speculation IMO. You seem to have a negative view on logic and so your position on it appears to me to be illogical.
True logic goes hand in hand with wisdom. What you are talking about is something else more like stupidity. I suggest you rethink this whole position. It doesn't make any sense to me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Re: pitfalls of logic [Re: Icelander]
#7719761 - 12/05/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, I rethought it as soon as I started getting replies. I'm not quite sure what I was thinking when I wrote it.
I'm sorry I wasted your time with a stupid post.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (12/05/07 01:55 PM)
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Icelander
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Nothing is wasted if something is learned. We are all (IMO) ignorant at least most of the time. But to avoid looking ignorant by refusing to take a chance on an idea is really foolish. Debate here is a great way to test your ideas so you can refine them. Keep trying and don't get attached to being right. You can actually learn a lot here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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