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Unfortunately, logic is useless in spiritual endeavors. It cannot guide our perspective in finding peace with the universe. It cannot tell us who we are.

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Tchan909 said:

The Bush argument was not a straw man. I simply feel that logic guides a lot of what he does, for better or for worse. I hoped it would illustrate my point that logic is best used as a tool and not as a way to determine how to live your life, but I guess it was sort of roundabout.

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Quote:

log·ic (lŏj'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2.
1. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
2. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
3. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
4. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
5. Computer circuitry.
6. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.
3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
4. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.
5. Computer Science
1. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
2. Computer circuitry.
3. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.

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MushroomTrip said:

Now tell me, to which side does the logic belongs to?
How come that people who decide to remain lucid and make use of critical thinking can detect the bull shit and strings of manipulation?

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Tchan909 said:

MushroomTrip said:

Now tell me, to which side does the logic belongs to?
How come that people who decide to remain lucid and make use of critical thinking can detect the bull shit and strings of manipulation?

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Bush's actions are highly illogical as policy.

However, given his immediate life-situation, he made choices based on logic to determine his course. He doesn't care about the well-being of the nation, or whether we can smell his bullshit. It reeks to high hell but the stink hasn't stopped him from achieving his goals.

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Ok, let's make this clear.
In your original post, you were outlining that using logic leads nowhere good, and your example was the Bush administration.
So who are the ones at loss? Those who used logic or those who didn't?
If he doesn't care about the nation, then the nation must adapt, get wiser and use... logic into realizing where they did wrong when they chose this administration.
The choice of taking care of ourselves as best as possible belongs to each of us, not to a form of govt or any other form of authority.

Tchan909 said:

Unfortunately, logic is useless in spiritual endeavors. It cannot guide our perspective in finding peace with the universe. It cannot tell us who we are. It cannot make our hardest decisions for us. It certainly cannot make us happy. Our minds and our bodies are illogical machines, arrived at through billions of years of trial and error, and certainly not through any logical process. Beliefs are not logical, as our fundamentalist friends will indicate. That's because logic is a figment of the human imagination, as fictional and dangerous as the God who commanded His followers to drive the heathens out of the Holy Land (whoever the actual recipients of that message were, as I'm pretty sure God was telling both sides the same thing).

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I fail to see how logic is the opposite of spirituality.
Using logic leads one to an aware and real conclusion, and from what I know this is exactly the aim of spirituality. To contain a deeper level of knowledge. Where's the contradiction?
Maybe those who call themselves spiritual and believe in hell and all the rest are not really spiritual, but full of shit. Ignorance is not spirituality.

MushroomTrip said:

If he doesn't care about the nation, then the nation must adapt, get wiser and use... logic into realizing where they did wrong when they chose this administration.
The choice of taking care of ourselves as best as possible belongs to each of us, not to a form of govt or any other form of authority.

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This is very true, thank you for reminding me of that.

My statement is simply that logic as a way of life for an individual is flawed. I probably just used way too many words.

MushroomTrip said:

What does this outside the duality mean? How would you define it?

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I would be inclined to say that it is merely a matter of taste, of personal prefference.
But the more I think about it, the more I realize that even what we call "taste" has it's logic.
I guess it would apply to this definition:

Quote:

The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.

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Many times we are unable to detect why we prefer red over blue, but this doesn't mean that there's no explanation for it. And as long as there's an explanation it means that behind it there's a theory.
And if there's a theory, there's logic.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I fail to see how logic is the opposite of spirituality.
Using logic leads one to an aware and real conclusion, and from what I know this is exactly the aim of spirituality. To contain a deeper level of knowledge.

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Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
"But the more I think about it, the more I realize that even what we call "taste" has it's logic."

"Many times we are unable to detect why we prefer red over blue, but this doesn't mean that there's no explanation for it."

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The universe is incapable of behaving illogically.

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Indeed.
The fact that we sometimes are unable to see the logic does not mean that there isn't any.

Quote:

Logic is an indispensable tool to the philosopher; it is the means by which he examines his world and seeks to find the order in chaos.

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