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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064921 - 11/02/03 12:40 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Granted quantum randomness MIGHT exist in will, but people still attach these horribly magical ideas to will and choice, it's ridiculous. Even if this quantum randomness thing is correct (quantum is something i know little about so) it still needs 'walls' to confine and narrow behavior less we just explode with random movements every which way. All i could imagine it doing is adding a choatic element to thoughts and feelings, thus creating a unique response, nothing more. Either way you strike it we still get very deterministic outcomes. We just end up with variations of a single theme of a response, which would happen anyway, quantum or no quantum.

"Free will" and "choice" are really just roundabout ways of saying that we follow rules that we never make explicit.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: David_Scape]
    #2069180 - 11/03/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

ok... First i agree that the illusion of free will exists and that it is real, as real as anything i suppose, and i'll concede that if you percieve reality in such a way that you have free will then for all intents and purposes in your personal reality you do have free will because you believe you do sincerely. A delusion is as true as any "truth" if its believed i suppose, but i'd rather not be deluded and face the way things actually are, if that is possible, and i believe it is, atleast i believe its possible to a greater extent then many people would want to admit, because that ofcourse would make them face their delusions. Second... I dont see how the existance of God is proof of free will, because in fact it seems to me that if there is a god, then ultimately gods will, the rules of the system, laws of physics whatever you want to call them, dictate the behavior of his/her/its creations, thus they have no choice in what they do because its all gods will. Now thats assuming that we are somehow seperate from god, but even if we are part of god then well we definately dont have free will because i think we would all have to concede that god would be in the drivers seat, and he/she/it is going to be steering the car, hell god would be the car. As for my other posts, the logical self constistant arguement statement was only in regards to my statements about free will, the rest of the stuff was just other ideas, theories, and i stated them as fact merely for dramatic effect, and i believe i posted something in the thread to that effect. They were just ideas or conclusions that all the evidence to date has led me to, they may be my beliefs or my facts but only mine and i stated that. I stated somewhere and i apologize if i didnt state it everywhere i should have, that the stuff on free will is the only thing i consider to probably be as true as anything can be short of the absolute truth one might gain from a mystical insight, but even that truth is subjective, my absolute truth gained through mystical insight might conflict with your mystical insight, or maybe one of our interpretations or both of that truth were mistaken but if reality is subjective then what you believe to be true is true so i guess actually if we sincerely each believed we were both right, then we would both be right. Anyways.....As for not posting all the info on free will in the thread and referring people to the other threads, i did that because the posts were long and the information already included in atleast 2 other threads, but if you want the short version here(well sorta short), this is the central idea.... My main arguement is this, that actually the whole concept of free will is well, i'm not sure exactly how to phrase this, but wrong, or worthless or illogical and here is why... True free will would be the ability to make choices that are not influenced by anything, if your choices are influenced then they arent really free, because you cant have limited freedom, the whole idea is a logical contridiction, an oxymoron, whatever, it just doesnt make any sense. And if you make choices for no reason then they are random choices, but you cant control randomness, that is inherently what randomness is, the uncontrollable and the unpredictable. If you have no control then you have no freedom, control is a requirement for freedom. Someone might argue that we have some limited control, but with limited control comes limited freedom, and limited freedom isn't really freedom at all, it cant be, you would have to have complete control to have freedom but that isnt possible, if you had complete control you'd be able to predict at all times exactly what would happen to whatever your controlling and whatever it effects and so on and on and on, which isnt possible, either because we just arent capable of that, or because of inherent quantum randomness, either way we are screwed. but lets suppose you had complete control somehow for a moment, well there is still going to be a reason for exerting that control over yourself or an object, one way over another, and as long as there is a reason, a cause its not freedom, without a cause its randomness, but you cant control randomness, at best you can guide it, load the dice in your favor but you still may not get what you want and if you cant get what you want always then you dont have true freedom of will, and when you do get what you want it will ulitmately be decided by forces outside yourself not under your control. The point is our whole conception of freedom, anykind of freedom really is false. We've invented an idea that cant manifest its self in the real world, at best its a true lie. If you want something else to ponder, ponder this... IF you could have true free will, would you really want it? if you had it then ultimately you'd be responsible for everything that is wrong not just with you, but with all of reality...you need complete freedom for free will, but if you had complete freedom you could fix singlehandedly everything you percieve to be wrong with the universe, and if you dont fix it your to blame for it all, your even to blame for being to blame, because with freewill you should be able to change that too. The whole idea of freewill when truely understood is utterly nonsense.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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