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OfflineLightningfractal
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Logic and omnipotence
    #2062565 - 11/01/03 01:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Much has been debated recently regarding the essence, or even the existance, of free will. Cause and effect, has been argued to be proof of the impossibility of free will. I counter that both co-exist as yin and yang. While logic attempts to define the universe, omnipotence causes it. So is the mathematical to the abstract, co-existing dimentions or perspectives. Cause and effect is merely the observed, from the perspective of looking into the past. While free-will, is the unfolding of the future. Therefore, you could say that free-will is the cause, and cause and effect is the effect. Almost, but not quite, because both are occuring simultaneously, the only difference is the perspective, whether into the future, or into the past. Cause and effect is therefore JUST A LABEL, which has been placed upon WHAT IS. (or WHAT WAS!)


--------------------
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2062781 - 11/01/03 03:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's insanely hard to understand what you're trying to say, but I think it's this:

Time is a dimension, and all of it is coexisting. So the past and the future are really an illusion.

Okay.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Phluck]
    #2062812 - 11/01/03 03:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm saying that "cause and effect" is irrelevant because it is merely an observation of, not equal to, life. And I add that a total comprehension of life is beyond the capabilities of human understanding, because that understanding does not exist in our dimension.


--------------------
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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2062823 - 11/01/03 04:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Many people have reported seeing the future beforehand while on drugs or otherwise though psychic techniques. Many of us here have experienced this, myself included, a great number of times. Our senses can feel some things, but we should realize that we are not picking up the "be all, end all" picture of what reality is. We have evolved into this. our senses are animal and very small in comparison to what exists to be sensed. Reality for us is only as much as our brains can piece together. We get only an incredibly inconceivably small image of what is real, through the limited processing power of our bodies. It's truly incredible really, to think about. We know more than any other creature we know, yet we still know SO little compared to everything that's out there.


Edited by RedNukleus (11/01/03 04:04 PM)


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: RedNucleus]
    #2063651 - 11/01/03 09:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

okay wait, im confused. How does "cause and effect" make freewill imposible? WOuldn't the free choice to do something make its effect come about?


--------------------

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2063695 - 11/01/03 10:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"Cause and effect is merely the observed, from the perspective of looking into the past. While free-will, is the unfolding of the future. Therefore, you could say that free-will is the cause, and cause and effect is the effect. Almost, but not quite, because both are occuring simultaneously, the only difference is the perspective, whether into the future, or into the past. "

Cause and effect is not irrelavent. The present is what it is because of the past. The enfolding of the universe in the future will be because of the present - simple. "Free will" follows rules(right? if not tell me how it doesnt.), and it doesnt fit the mystical bill that people try to put on it.

People are conscious of their actions and thoughts, and since they probably cant think of determinism beyond simple dominoes and billiard balls they make a jump in reasoning and give magical connotations to words like 'choice' and 'free will'. The REAL question here is what causes inanimate matter to become animate matter, how is a self born from neurons or any system...
If we loose 'free will' then what happens? nothing! we still act the same way, we still have responsibility, we will still have control.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: David_Scape]
    #2063743 - 11/01/03 10:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If you think of conscious decision as a principle of quantum mechanics it does away with the negating of free-will by Cause and Effect :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: trendal]
    #2063748 - 11/01/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

fair enough, granted. I was referring to the general populous of people who's brain shouts this big error message when they hear a deterministic argument of free will.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: David_Scape]
    #2064046 - 11/02/03 01:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I reaaaaaly wish I was educated on the stuff you're talking about. I'm at college, what classes can I take? I'm serious, help me out please.


Edited by RedNukleus (11/02/03 01:38 AM)


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: trendal]
    #2064116 - 11/02/03 02:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you think of conscious decision as a principle of quantum mechanics it does away with the negating of free-will by Cause and Effect




Right! And free-will implies limitless possibilities, and so is inherently undefinable. If you could define it, it would be limited by it's definition. Further, since the human mind operates with a finite capability, because it operates using a finite language, it is uncapable of fathoming the infinite. And, since understanding and definition currently work hand in hand, the infinite, including free will, cannot to my knowledge be understood by the human mind. Perhaps the way to comprehend these elusive truths would be through separation from the physical body, by astral projection, meditation techniques, or by death. Or perhaps one day God will give me a popscicle which contains the truth. Yes, I'd prefer that.


--------------------
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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064231 - 11/02/03 04:33 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If you havent already you should read my posts, ALL THE BIG QUESTIONS ANSWERED and BIG QUESTIONS (comments on free will) They address much of whats been said in this thread regarding the validity or lack there of of free will. I believe i have laid out a logical self consistant arguement that if you accept my premises such as randomness in not free will because you cannot control randomness,and ect... then you will be forced to agree with me, or you can i suppose disagree but i'm willing to bet not logically. Only blind faith that i'm wrong would be the only good reason i suppose for disagreeing, if that is a good reason. But i would rather face what appears to have to be true then turn my head because i dont like the implications of the seemingly true. If you cant find a fault in my logic but still disagree, then you should be suprised everytime you turn the key and your car starts, or every day when the sun once again rises, because my logic is as sound as the logic of the scientific principles that say your engine will start, and the sun will rise, with as close to absolute certainy as we can get without mystical revelation.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be
P.S. Ofcourse whether u disagree or agree it wont really matter because you dont have any choice in which you do.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2064385 - 11/02/03 07:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Free will is an illusion because to us, it exists. When we make choices, it was us that made that decision. Therefore, free will.

But at the same time, every thought we think and every action we take was going to happen. You could go back to the beginning of the universe as we know it (I myself think that our universe is just a subatomic particle composing something relatively bigger) and follow the progression. It would show you that this happened because of that. This particle flew this way because it was going to. The path of least resistance. (thanks to Deiyamyin for showing me this! hehe)

So, in conclusion, we have free will. But the choices we choose were going to be chosen because this particle flew this direction while that particle flew that direction.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2064625 - 11/02/03 12:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, I'm going to use "logic" to explain why there is free will. *drumroll*

A. If God exists, he created the universe.
B. God is supposed to have come out with a paperback book.
C. It has been proven, that this book does exist, because people have SEEN this book.
D. In this book, God says there is free will.
E. I have had a conversation with God, and he even shook his fist at me.

Therefore

F. Free will does exist.

*applause*


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064642 - 11/02/03 12:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

~my equally non-essensial rebuttle~

A. If God does not exists, then neither does the spoon
B. According to The Matrix there is no spoon
C. I know this to be true for I too have SEEN there is no spoon
D. I may be known to lie from time to time - but movies are never fictional
E. movie = truth

Therefore

F. Free will does not exist

*double applause*  :grin: 


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064660 - 11/02/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps my "logic" was humorous, but it was not totally irrelevant. I am pointing out that if there is a God there is free will, and many have had religious/spiritual experiences revealing the existance of God. And just because I cannot explain what free will IS, (because it is of God), does not mean that I should accept the argument that it doesn't exist. To be able to explain it would be just as easy as explaining God, or explaining life, or any of a hundred unfathomable mysteries.


--------------------
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064665 - 11/02/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Seriously though -

I agree with fireworks_god on this one...free will is just an illusion, and our concept of 'free will' is all just part of the great cosmic joke that is our existence. Some people believe in free will because they are meant to believe in it - that's just part of their role...others don't believe in free will simply because they are meant to not believe in it - and that is all just part of they're role. And then of course, there's me - he only person who actually knows with 100% certainty that free will doesn't exist...which is, naturally, part of my role (which - saddly enough - isn't even remotely close to the demi-god I try to convince myself I am...I'm basically just some idiot that's almost completely convieced himself he's god, and as such - likes to make claims using terms like: "absolute 100% certainty" or what have you, in order to try an convience others that his own delusions are in fact true...but that's a whoile nother thread all together)


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064668 - 11/02/03 12:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

my appologies...I thought you were trying to be a smart-ass or something (I didn't mean to belittle your ideals or anything - I just thought you were fucking around, and so I did the same with the inverse)


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064671 - 11/02/03 12:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)



Quote:

And then of course, there's me - he only person who actually knows with 100% certainty that free will doesn't exist




Then we are the two stubborn Zax.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



Edited by Lightningfractal (11/02/03 12:28 PM)


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064679 - 11/02/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

appology accepted, I must admit that post contained some elements which I knew might incite some belittling. Like where I put *applause*. My appologies as well.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2064818 - 11/02/03 01:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"I believe i have laid out a logical self consistant arguement that if you accept my premises such as randomness in not free will because you cannot control randomness,and ect... then you will be forced to agree with me, or you can i suppose disagree but i'm willing to bet not logically."

No offense, but I read your posts, and some of the things you say don't really follow any logic. You lay them out claiming you've discovered the answers to so many difficult questions humanity has been pondering for generations, but you didn't really want to back up the more illogical things about God and whatnot. Why don't you try to argue your ideas here instead of pointing people to your old posts as if they were scripture.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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