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OfflineLightningfractal
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Logic and omnipotence
    #2062565 - 11/01/03 11:22 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Much has been debated recently regarding the essence, or even the existance, of free will. Cause and effect, has been argued to be proof of the impossibility of free will. I counter that both co-exist as yin and yang. While logic attempts to define the universe, omnipotence causes it. So is the mathematical to the abstract, co-existing dimentions or perspectives. Cause and effect is merely the observed, from the perspective of looking into the past. While free-will, is the unfolding of the future. Therefore, you could say that free-will is the cause, and cause and effect is the effect. Almost, but not quite, because both are occuring simultaneously, the only difference is the perspective, whether into the future, or into the past. Cause and effect is therefore JUST A LABEL, which has been placed upon WHAT IS. (or WHAT WAS!)


--------------------
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2062781 - 11/01/03 01:32 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

It's insanely hard to understand what you're trying to say, but I think it's this:

Time is a dimension, and all of it is coexisting. So the past and the future are really an illusion.

Okay.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Phluck]
    #2062812 - 11/01/03 01:52 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I'm saying that "cause and effect" is irrelevant because it is merely an observation of, not equal to, life. And I add that a total comprehension of life is beyond the capabilities of human understanding, because that understanding does not exist in our dimension.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2062823 - 11/01/03 02:03 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Many people have reported seeing the future beforehand while on drugs or otherwise though psychic techniques. Many of us here have experienced this, myself included, a great number of times. Our senses can feel some things, but we should realize that we are not picking up the "be all, end all" picture of what reality is. We have evolved into this. our senses are animal and very small in comparison to what exists to be sensed. Reality for us is only as much as our brains can piece together. We get only an incredibly inconceivably small image of what is real, through the limited processing power of our bodies. It's truly incredible really, to think about. We know more than any other creature we know, yet we still know SO little compared to everything that's out there.


--------------------
Namaste

Edited by RedNukleus (11/01/03 02:04 PM)

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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: RedNucleus]
    #2063651 - 11/01/03 07:40 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

okay wait, im confused. How does "cause and effect" make freewill imposible? WOuldn't the free choice to do something make its effect come about?


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2063695 - 11/01/03 08:10 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"Cause and effect is merely the observed, from the perspective of looking into the past. While free-will, is the unfolding of the future. Therefore, you could say that free-will is the cause, and cause and effect is the effect. Almost, but not quite, because both are occuring simultaneously, the only difference is the perspective, whether into the future, or into the past. "

Cause and effect is not irrelavent. The present is what it is because of the past. The enfolding of the universe in the future will be because of the present - simple. "Free will" follows rules(right? if not tell me how it doesnt.), and it doesnt fit the mystical bill that people try to put on it.

People are conscious of their actions and thoughts, and since they probably cant think of determinism beyond simple dominoes and billiard balls they make a jump in reasoning and give magical connotations to words like 'choice' and 'free will'. The REAL question here is what causes inanimate matter to become animate matter, how is a self born from neurons or any system...
If we loose 'free will' then what happens? nothing! we still act the same way, we still have responsibility, we will still have control.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: David_Scape]
    #2063743 - 11/01/03 08:42 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If you think of conscious decision as a principle of quantum mechanics it does away with the negating of free-will by Cause and Effect :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: trendal]
    #2063748 - 11/01/03 08:47 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

fair enough, granted. I was referring to the general populous of people who's brain shouts this big error message when they hear a deterministic argument of free will.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: David_Scape]
    #2064046 - 11/01/03 11:38 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I reaaaaaly wish I was educated on the stuff you're talking about. I'm at college, what classes can I take? I'm serious, help me out please.


--------------------
Namaste

Edited by RedNukleus (11/01/03 11:38 PM)

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: trendal]
    #2064116 - 11/02/03 12:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If you think of conscious decision as a principle of quantum mechanics it does away with the negating of free-will by Cause and Effect




Right! And free-will implies limitless possibilities, and so is inherently undefinable. If you could define it, it would be limited by it's definition. Further, since the human mind operates with a finite capability, because it operates using a finite language, it is uncapable of fathoming the infinite. And, since understanding and definition currently work hand in hand, the infinite, including free will, cannot to my knowledge be understood by the human mind. Perhaps the way to comprehend these elusive truths would be through separation from the physical body, by astral projection, meditation techniques, or by death. Or perhaps one day God will give me a popscicle which contains the truth. Yes, I'd prefer that.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064231 - 11/02/03 02:33 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If you havent already you should read my posts, ALL THE BIG QUESTIONS ANSWERED and BIG QUESTIONS (comments on free will) They address much of whats been said in this thread regarding the validity or lack there of of free will. I believe i have laid out a logical self consistant arguement that if you accept my premises such as randomness in not free will because you cannot control randomness,and ect... then you will be forced to agree with me, or you can i suppose disagree but i'm willing to bet not logically. Only blind faith that i'm wrong would be the only good reason i suppose for disagreeing, if that is a good reason. But i would rather face what appears to have to be true then turn my head because i dont like the implications of the seemingly true. If you cant find a fault in my logic but still disagree, then you should be suprised everytime you turn the key and your car starts, or every day when the sun once again rises, because my logic is as sound as the logic of the scientific principles that say your engine will start, and the sun will rise, with as close to absolute certainy as we can get without mystical revelation.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be
P.S. Ofcourse whether u disagree or agree it wont really matter because you dont have any choice in which you do.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2064385 - 11/02/03 05:30 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Free will is an illusion because to us, it exists. When we make choices, it was us that made that decision. Therefore, free will.

But at the same time, every thought we think and every action we take was going to happen. You could go back to the beginning of the universe as we know it (I myself think that our universe is just a subatomic particle composing something relatively bigger) and follow the progression. It would show you that this happened because of that. This particle flew this way because it was going to. The path of least resistance. (thanks to Deiyamyin for showing me this! hehe)

So, in conclusion, we have free will. But the choices we choose were going to be chosen because this particle flew this direction while that particle flew that direction.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2064625 - 11/02/03 10:01 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, I'm going to use "logic" to explain why there is free will. *drumroll*

A. If God exists, he created the universe.
B. God is supposed to have come out with a paperback book.
C. It has been proven, that this book does exist, because people have SEEN this book.
D. In this book, God says there is free will.
E. I have had a conversation with God, and he even shook his fist at me.

Therefore

F. Free will does exist.

*applause*


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Registered: 06/16/02
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064642 - 11/02/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

~my equally non-essensial rebuttle~

A. If God does not exists, then neither does the spoon
B. According to The Matrix there is no spoon
C. I know this to be true for I too have SEEN there is no spoon
D. I may be known to lie from time to time - but movies are never fictional
E. movie = truth

Therefore

F. Free will does not exist

*double applause*  :grin: 


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064660 - 11/02/03 10:18 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps my "logic" was humorous, but it was not totally irrelevant. I am pointing out that if there is a God there is free will, and many have had religious/spiritual experiences revealing the existance of God. And just because I cannot explain what free will IS, (because it is of God), does not mean that I should accept the argument that it doesn't exist. To be able to explain it would be just as easy as explaining God, or explaining life, or any of a hundred unfathomable mysteries.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064665 - 11/02/03 10:22 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Seriously though -

I agree with fireworks_god on this one...free will is just an illusion, and our concept of 'free will' is all just part of the great cosmic joke that is our existence. Some people believe in free will because they are meant to believe in it - that's just part of their role...others don't believe in free will simply because they are meant to not believe in it - and that is all just part of they're role. And then of course, there's me - he only person who actually knows with 100% certainty that free will doesn't exist...which is, naturally, part of my role (which - saddly enough - isn't even remotely close to the demi-god I try to convince myself I am...I'm basically just some idiot that's almost completely convieced himself he's god, and as such - likes to make claims using terms like: "absolute 100% certainty" or what have you, in order to try an convience others that his own delusions are in fact true...but that's a whoile nother thread all together)


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064668 - 11/02/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

my appologies...I thought you were trying to be a smart-ass or something (I didn't mean to belittle your ideals or anything - I just thought you were fucking around, and so I did the same with the inverse)


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064671 - 11/02/03 10:27 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)



Quote:

And then of course, there's me - he only person who actually knows with 100% certainty that free will doesn't exist




Then we are the two stubborn Zax.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


Edited by Lightningfractal (11/02/03 10:28 AM)

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064679 - 11/02/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

appology accepted, I must admit that post contained some elements which I knew might incite some belittling. Like where I put *applause*. My appologies as well.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2064818 - 11/02/03 11:46 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"I believe i have laid out a logical self consistant arguement that if you accept my premises such as randomness in not free will because you cannot control randomness,and ect... then you will be forced to agree with me, or you can i suppose disagree but i'm willing to bet not logically."

No offense, but I read your posts, and some of the things you say don't really follow any logic. You lay them out claiming you've discovered the answers to so many difficult questions humanity has been pondering for generations, but you didn't really want to back up the more illogical things about God and whatnot. Why don't you try to argue your ideas here instead of pointing people to your old posts as if they were scripture.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064921 - 11/02/03 12:40 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Granted quantum randomness MIGHT exist in will, but people still attach these horribly magical ideas to will and choice, it's ridiculous. Even if this quantum randomness thing is correct (quantum is something i know little about so) it still needs 'walls' to confine and narrow behavior less we just explode with random movements every which way. All i could imagine it doing is adding a choatic element to thoughts and feelings, thus creating a unique response, nothing more. Either way you strike it we still get very deterministic outcomes. We just end up with variations of a single theme of a response, which would happen anyway, quantum or no quantum.

"Free will" and "choice" are really just roundabout ways of saying that we follow rules that we never make explicit.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Logic and omnipotence [Re: David_Scape]
    #2069180 - 11/03/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

ok... First i agree that the illusion of free will exists and that it is real, as real as anything i suppose, and i'll concede that if you percieve reality in such a way that you have free will then for all intents and purposes in your personal reality you do have free will because you believe you do sincerely. A delusion is as true as any "truth" if its believed i suppose, but i'd rather not be deluded and face the way things actually are, if that is possible, and i believe it is, atleast i believe its possible to a greater extent then many people would want to admit, because that ofcourse would make them face their delusions. Second... I dont see how the existance of God is proof of free will, because in fact it seems to me that if there is a god, then ultimately gods will, the rules of the system, laws of physics whatever you want to call them, dictate the behavior of his/her/its creations, thus they have no choice in what they do because its all gods will. Now thats assuming that we are somehow seperate from god, but even if we are part of god then well we definately dont have free will because i think we would all have to concede that god would be in the drivers seat, and he/she/it is going to be steering the car, hell god would be the car. As for my other posts, the logical self constistant arguement statement was only in regards to my statements about free will, the rest of the stuff was just other ideas, theories, and i stated them as fact merely for dramatic effect, and i believe i posted something in the thread to that effect. They were just ideas or conclusions that all the evidence to date has led me to, they may be my beliefs or my facts but only mine and i stated that. I stated somewhere and i apologize if i didnt state it everywhere i should have, that the stuff on free will is the only thing i consider to probably be as true as anything can be short of the absolute truth one might gain from a mystical insight, but even that truth is subjective, my absolute truth gained through mystical insight might conflict with your mystical insight, or maybe one of our interpretations or both of that truth were mistaken but if reality is subjective then what you believe to be true is true so i guess actually if we sincerely each believed we were both right, then we would both be right. Anyways.....As for not posting all the info on free will in the thread and referring people to the other threads, i did that because the posts were long and the information already included in atleast 2 other threads, but if you want the short version here(well sorta short), this is the central idea.... My main arguement is this, that actually the whole concept of free will is well, i'm not sure exactly how to phrase this, but wrong, or worthless or illogical and here is why... True free will would be the ability to make choices that are not influenced by anything, if your choices are influenced then they arent really free, because you cant have limited freedom, the whole idea is a logical contridiction, an oxymoron, whatever, it just doesnt make any sense. And if you make choices for no reason then they are random choices, but you cant control randomness, that is inherently what randomness is, the uncontrollable and the unpredictable. If you have no control then you have no freedom, control is a requirement for freedom. Someone might argue that we have some limited control, but with limited control comes limited freedom, and limited freedom isn't really freedom at all, it cant be, you would have to have complete control to have freedom but that isnt possible, if you had complete control you'd be able to predict at all times exactly what would happen to whatever your controlling and whatever it effects and so on and on and on, which isnt possible, either because we just arent capable of that, or because of inherent quantum randomness, either way we are screwed. but lets suppose you had complete control somehow for a moment, well there is still going to be a reason for exerting that control over yourself or an object, one way over another, and as long as there is a reason, a cause its not freedom, without a cause its randomness, but you cant control randomness, at best you can guide it, load the dice in your favor but you still may not get what you want and if you cant get what you want always then you dont have true freedom of will, and when you do get what you want it will ulitmately be decided by forces outside yourself not under your control. The point is our whole conception of freedom, anykind of freedom really is false. We've invented an idea that cant manifest its self in the real world, at best its a true lie. If you want something else to ponder, ponder this... IF you could have true free will, would you really want it? if you had it then ultimately you'd be responsible for everything that is wrong not just with you, but with all of reality...you need complete freedom for free will, but if you had complete freedom you could fix singlehandedly everything you percieve to be wrong with the universe, and if you dont fix it your to blame for it all, your even to blame for being to blame, because with freewill you should be able to change that too. The whole idea of freewill when truely understood is utterly nonsense.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be

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