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Frog
Warrior


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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2346857 - 02/17/04 05:07 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have been reading "The Field" by Lynne McTaggart, in which she discusses the PEAR project in pretty good depth, and what they have been accomplishing, as well as other matters related to which you are discussing.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
#2346892 - 02/17/04 05:13 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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You have to separate technology from the way science determine our worldview and acts as a religion in many cases. It is not as a spokesman against science I claim these things (I study quantum physics). What is science prime goal? To try to describe the world as it really is.
My personal opinion is that we are approaching a paradigmic shift in the way we view ourself and our place in the world. I do not think this is in opposition to science but in opposition to how we currently think of science. The world is as it is, wheter we like it or not.
So I am not saying that we ought to do away with science, but we ought to expand our worldview to encompass human consciousness into physical research because this is an anomalie (as Kuhn put it) that the present paradigm is no longer able to handle.
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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trendal
J♠


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Posts: 20,815
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2346927 - 02/17/04 05:22 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well put! 
I also think we are on the verge of a somewhat ground-shaking shift in our views of the world.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Mal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2346930 - 02/17/04 05:23 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not entirely sure how science as we currently think of it (this we---I'm not entirely sure which group this is!) is inadequate for explaning consciousness.
Well, that's not true. I think that it is incapable of explaining consciousness, but that's simply because we have these "intuitive" notions of what it means to be consciouss that we're hammered with from birth. I think that, unfortunately, the real picture will end up being far more mechanical and far less transcendental than many might like it to be.
As one of the best examples, many people, if asked "Do we have free will?" would think it an odd question---of course we do. But where is the evidence that any such thing exists? There isn't any---none that convinces me, at any rate. And so, perhaps it is the case that science-as-it-is-now cannot encompass an explanation of free will. But this is only because the concept is unintelligible.
-------------------- ---- "Better Dead than Red."
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
#2346990 - 02/17/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>I think that it is incapable of explaining consciousness, but that's simply because we have these "intuitive" notions of what it means to be consciouss that we're hammered with from birth.
You are putting it all upside-down! You want to illegitimate the most basic and indisputable fact (your existence and consciousness) from a mechanistically oriented reasoning which stems from a dated and incorrect view of the world.
You do not need to look further than quantum mechanics to see that a system is more than the sum of its parts. Quantum MECHAN?CS is thus a misleading term.
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2349723 - 02/18/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Visionaire said: faen
My my my, such naughty language.  Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: fireworks_god]
#2350239 - 02/18/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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fireworks god said that The_Visionaire said: faen
never uttered such a word!!
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2350712 - 02/18/04 02:24 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hehehe, there is no shame in it. See:
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

Hell, I'm just lucky I recognized it... I barely know any Norsk. 
Anyways, to contribute to this, I would just like to say that I also agree with trendal that there is some ground-breaking paradigm shifts coming soon... exponential growth, exponential growth! Let THAT be our chant.  Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Mal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 132
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2351200 - 02/18/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Unfortunately, I don't see my consciousness as indisputable or all that intuitive. I'm sure there are a great many religious people raised in ReligiousCommunityXYZ who might say "But how can you deny that XYZ is our Lord and that He controls everything? It is the most indisputable fact of all!"
It seems to me that our indisputable facts are far more a matter of how we're raised than there actually being any.
-------------------- ---- "Better Dead than Red."
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
#2353698 - 02/19/04 05:21 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why would matter organize itself into the human being? Why would we as a process in matter suddenly begin to understand, to be able to root out the very same laws that govern us? Why are we alive while a rock is dead? Where is this border between consciousness and that-which-is-not-consciousness? I belive that everything is consciousness, and that consciousness is meaning. But of course the consciousness of a rock is quite different from that of a human being, and of course not at all SELF-conscious.
Matter is not just matter. I am thinking of psychometri, the ability certain people have to discern the past of an object or extract certain feelings or emotions out from the object. (Ref; Prof. Emerson, J.Norman: Intuitive Archeology; A Developing Approach, 1974).
We also have the phenomena of homeopathy, where matter seems to contain a memory.
I myself has also personal experience (primarily when affected by psilocybin) of places containing an alsmost physical vibration of feeling. (especially one time; I past through a certain room seeing straight ahead minding my own business, when I was struck by a penetrating vibration from the room I passed. I had no prior knowledge of this room and nothing that could explain why this happened. When walked further from the room it all went away.)
OK, I`m just saying that I have my own reason to think the way I think, and it is not built on faith or a fanatical or dogmatic agenda. This is really how I think the world is put together
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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raytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2354052 - 02/19/04 08:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Throughout this thread I have found myself to agree with most of what Visio has said so far. It is really refreshing to see someone expressing such ideas with such clarity. I am of the exact same mind regarding the flash of insight we experience when we tackle problems and I think that logic follows only as a line of proof, in constrast to the way any computational machine operates. I think that this insight might be what Headroom refers to as emotion. Mathematics is a very weird but really persisting thing. This is a kind of persistance that is interwind in our concept of reality itself. We are unable to think in any way about the world if we are not to use mathematics in some form. Moreover, it seems that mathematical truth is independent of the mathematician, which appears to point towards some form of objective truth. Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery? To me this is the main question of the thread. I think that any civilization will have to inevitably stumble upon some form of 'ideal' geometrical structures or an equivalent abstraction. An alien civilization would probaly have its own Platonic Forms, and even though these might not look like ours, they would correspond to 'ideals' only constructed in terms of their own alien perception. So, even though their maths would look quite different, they might have the same source so to speak, or point towards the same unspeakable truth. However, these are working ideas...
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raytrace
Stranger

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2354095 - 02/19/04 09:06 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I belive that everything is consciousness, and that consciousness is meaning. I am puzzled over this. I don't think I agree, at least I wouldn't phrase it like that.
By the way, one of my goals in life is to stay alive to witness the next paradigm shift. Ahh... that would be a day...
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
#2354301 - 02/19/04 10:34 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery?
I think it is discovered or unfolded, its all there. Or is it? Drives me a little bit insane to think of. Not ready to enter this dark pit yet.. 
Well my "definition" of consciousness is perhaps remote from how we ordinary think of consciousness, the same for meaning.
As I tried to convey; how does the organization of matter lead to consciousness?
An electrons path is ruled by its Lagrangian, telling it where to go and how to act. This is the electrons meaning in a deep sense. And this meaning is also its being.
I wrote in another post here that I do not think Truth is a truth that is ABOUT something. It is a movement IN something. Similarly I do not think meaning is something that we HAVE, meaning is something that we ARE.
I think that the way we percieve time, as an example, is due to that time is an inherent part of our meaning. When this meaning of time is changed our being in time will also change.
This is pretty weird thoughts but I`ve been outside time in my psychedelic escapades as well, so its only natural that I try to make a model of it. That this is thoughts that one of the greatest physicists of the last century also had makes my assumtions stronger.
"Its meaning is its being" (Bohm)
OK, much to discuss but no time, and Mr Beer is waiting for me
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2354329 - 02/19/04 10:41 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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>Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery?
Neither. Mathematics is just like paint. It is simply a tool that is used to describe something.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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raytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
#2358947 - 02/20/04 10:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey Mal, I would appreciate it if you could clarify the following points for me:
I don't see a refutation of strong determinism or inherent randomness ever coming from within the system, and as unfortunate as that is, this is where we live. Why so? Can you elaborate?
Unfortunately, I don't see my consciousness as indisputable or all that intuitive. Are you denying your consciousness?
And so, perhaps it is the case that science-as-it-is-now cannot encompass an explanation of free will. But this is only because the concept is unintelligible. Do you mean that "free will" just as "consciousness" are meaningless concepts?
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raytrace
Stranger

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Seuss]
#2358978 - 02/20/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mathematics is just like paint. It is simply a tool that is used to describe something. I don't see how you can get away from the original question. Is this tool something we invented, or is it something that in a sense was 'waiting' to be discovered, i.e. something that can act as a tool but has inherent existence?
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raytrace
Stranger

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2362560 - 02/21/04 02:11 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well my "definition" of consciousness is perhaps remote from how we ordinary think of consciousness, the same for meaning.
Maybe the two are in a sense connected in that meaning needs consciousness to exist, but I do not see how these two are in essence the same thing. I reckon I can be in a state of consciousness devoid of meaning (is this not what meditation is for?). How is this state of consciousness 'meaning'?
As I tried to convey; how does the organization of matter lead to consciousness?
I also cannot see how organization of matter can result in consciousness. I do not think we can assign consciousness to sufficient complexity, not even when this refers to specific organization. If I get a really long piece of string and start forming complex knots over knots, will it suddenly become conscious when it gets complex enough? Or is it that consciousness magically appears if I rearrange it in a particular way?
However, I still fail to see how consciousness can just be a property of all matter either. How does this relate to my own sense of consciousness? I don't experience any discontinuity in consciousness when I cut off my nails. Is it that just any possible grouping of matter has each own consciousness? A theory like that would violate Occam?s razor.
This is however, if consciousness resides in every single thing (that is indepenently of any greater consciousness). To be honest, I don't understand how everything can just be consciousness.
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
#2362960 - 02/21/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sorry raytrace. I just wrote you a very, very, VERY, long post arguing my view, and just as I`m about to post it my computer is infected by a bug that I`ve never seen before.
Earlier today I wrote a long mail to the UFO-thread. As I was about to post it an error came up "explorer has encountered a problem and needs to close" Yyppe!
This time I had taken precautions and had copyed my post to you in its entirety. But what happens? A strange bug occurs that shuts off the entire computer, erasing the memory of the copyed post.
Makes one wonder...
Well, I'm desillutioned now, and do not have the spirit to start over again...
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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The_Visionaire
Torch

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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
#2368199 - 02/22/04 02:05 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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This was meant as a answer to fireworks_god in another thread, but the way it developed it probably belongs to this thread and hopefully answers your questions regarding my view. Is order something we ourselves construct? When saying "We ourselves construct order" this implies a 'we' that is somewhat independent of order, standing outside the everchanging flux of order. You ask if it is chaos that drives this flux of order. As some of my earlier posts imply, I do not really think there is anything like chaos (chaos is just chaos if interpreted in a context which does not have anything to do with the 'chaotic' system. (i.e. random numbers generated by a computer is not really chaotic. The computer starts with a number (the current time as an example) and multiplies it with itself, then extract the middle digits and repeats the procedure. This is of course just one way of many. Even if it is a very simple algorithm of low ordering, the end results appear entirely random in the context within which it is used. But it is not really chaotic. Neither do I think randomness in QM is a inherent complete randomness.) My suggestion is instead that 'meaning', not chaos, drives the flux of order an thus change in the universe. If you have some order, this implies that there is a certain meaning 'to it', as order carries the idea of information content. (But you see that the 'to it' refers to order so you get the sentence: "order implies that there is a certain meaning to order". That is the same as saying: "order is an order that has a meaning". This is not good enough, as the very word order seems to imply meaning; perhaps order is the language of meaning? Or that order and meaning are respectively the unfolded and enfolded aspects of the higer unity of the two; being or existence. (Or that meaning IS being and order is the unfolded aspect of this.) The order of an electrons path shows where it was, where it is, and where it is going, this path is the electrons meaning unfolded. But the theories that we build our knowledge of the electron upon is only dealing with the explicate lower-dimensional manifistation of the electron. The electron has probably many plains of existence. We humans are infinite more complex than an electron, and as everything that naturally emerges from the universe we sound the depths of the cosmos. Our soul or higher being has its place deep within some enfolded aspect of the cosmos (the higher being may have infinite layers (or states of existence), or a limited number (i.e. mental, astral, spiritual bodies etc.) We can contrast this theory of the human being with an exclusive explicate order phenomena such as i.e. a Radio. The function of this Radio is intentional only to the explicate order in which it was constructed. It carries no significant meaning at higher levels. The human being on the other hand has been with on the journey all the way. The idea of Rupert Sheldrakes morphogenetic, formative field, strikes me. Remember AI (Do not like Spielberg movies by the way) when the boy woke up millions of years after the humans had died out? His life could not be sustained, probably due to the dissolution of the human morphogenetic field following the extinction of the human race). Why we choose to have our attention directed to this lowerdimensional body, I do not know. The sages says it is because we have a lesson to learn. It gives us a structure to operate within that we currently need in our state of evolution. There is a well mapped phenomena of near death experiences that imply a consciousness also after the body is declared dead. Patients at hospital surgeries which has had NDE, reports that they saw their own body and describes in great detail the procedure of the operation. This implies that consciousness is not something that needs the neural system to operate, although consciousness without the neural network is of a different quality. It is strange though, that you can be under the influence of narcosis, and it just goes black, and the next second you are back. The 'soul' doesn't seem to leave the body before the vessel is seriously fucked up, hearthbeat stopping and all. Then again, I experienced an OBE at a 5g trip and you do not really need drugs to experience such a thing either. But an out of body experience is separated from a NDE in that the neural system is fully operational, so it does not have the impact on our worldview that the NDE has. It is very interesting to notice that OBE can be triggered with the use of electrodes at a certain spot in the brain. This center in the brain was responsibel of organizing the impressions of the world into a coherent experience. WOW! we see that such a center is in fact filtering out only a certain order or meaning, giving credibility to the notion that our "spirits" inhabit the human body to obtain a certain structure that is most beneficial for our learning progress for the time being. OK, so the human being has many layers. Who is the choser that makes the choice to raise my arm? It is thought. Is this thought me? No, it is a lowerdimensional aspect of what I am. This mental body of thought is again ruled by subtler orders (soul, astral body, whatever we want to call these subtler orders). Subtle orders affect the lower orders in a way that seems acausal from the algorithmic procedure inherent in the lower order (The subtle is more powerful, David Bohm) But everything is connected, and the universe is probably holographic as well, fragments containing information of the whole. Is order constructed? Well the question may have changed its meaning during this post. Thought is an order, causally dependent within its own domain (but which can be influenced from other realms of order). Thus if we take the whole piece of creation into account, order is the unfoldment of the meaning of creation. This meaning is not determined as it is infinite. All is learning, learning is growing, growing is becoming, becoming is creation, creation is infinite...
-------------------- There are no differences between men and gods, one blends softly causal into the other. -Frank Herbert, Dune.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
#2368232 - 02/22/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks a lot for posting that. Your thoughts mirror a lot of my own, actually. I have to go to bed soon so I can't get into it, but I'll think some more about this. Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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