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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2368254 - 02/22/04 02:24 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

>>"(i.e. random numbers generated by a computer is not really chaotic. The computer starts with

a number (the current time as an example) and multiplies it with itself, then extract the

middle digits and repeats the procedure. This is of course just one way of many. Even if it

is a very simple algorithm of low ordering, the end results appear entirely random in the

context within which it is used. But it is not really chaotic. Neither do I think randomness

in QM is a inherent complete randomness.)"


Um, I don't suppose you could use an example that doesn't involve numbers, do ya?  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Frog]
    #2368267 - 02/22/04 02:27 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Well the ball rolling down the bumpy hill explained earlier in this tread is one example.

Another example can be death insurance policies. From the insurance companies view the death of each policy holder appears entirely random. They can howerver "controll" this randomness in large numbers as the deaths of the customers follow a certain distribution (I think it is called a Poiree-distribution).

This is similar to the situation in QM. There is no knowing when a radioactive nucleus is going to brake down. However observing many such brakedowns over time, they form a certain pattern. Traditional QM assumes although that each nucleus' brakedown stems from an inherent and complete randomness.

This can be contrasted to the death insurancy policy holders. For the insurance companies the death of a customer appears random (although they in large make up a certain statistic), but noone believes in this randomness if interpreted in the context of each policy holders life. There will of course be a causal reason for the policy holders death (hit by a car, died from cancer etc..).

Similarly I think there is a causal reason for the brakedown of an atomic nucleus, we just do not have the experimental instruments or knowledge to determine such a cause.

Edited by The_Visionaire (02/23/04 02:27 AM)

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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2368325 - 02/22/04 02:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

>>My suggestion is instead that 'meaning', not chaos, drives the flux of order an thus change in the universe.

I am in agreement with this, although I don't yet understand the basis for the statement. I read the statements that you wrote, and they make sense, and like I said, I've been reading The Field, and I've read some other stuff, and I have to admit that it's like learning a new language.

But I "feel" it to be true, so far. (*winks at Swami*)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Frog]
    #2368373 - 02/22/04 02:56 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I`ve not read The Field, but I have taken a note of it.
You are right, these thoughts need time to mature. They are probably not graspable in terms of linear thought algorithms. This is perhaps why you have trouble finding a basis for my statements.

Then again, this is just a suggestion, my mind is not closed to these perceptions.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Offlineyewhew
Dead in Eternity

Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 153
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: Seuss]
    #2368620 - 02/22/04 04:25 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
>Is mathematical truth an invention or is it a discovery?

Neither.  Mathematics is just like paint.  It is simply a tool that is used to describe something.




Invention: the creation of something that does not exist (and now does)
Discovery: being introduced to something that already exists

if math was neither invented nor discovered it was never created by us nor did it exist before we started using it. clearly this is logical absurdity. I can understand how you feel your reply of "Neither" to be very shocking to all of us pondering this question and you thus feel it has any sort of meaning. But alas, it just shows that you do not know what you are talking about. I had to point this out as it is quite annoying.  :noway:


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2369238 - 02/22/04 07:00 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

WOW!!!  :oogle:

I need to review that since I have a ouple of questions, great post The_visionaire  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: raytrace]
    #2370873 - 02/23/04 05:23 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

>>I reckon I can be in a state of consciousness devoid of meaning (is this not what meditation is for?. How is this state of consciousness 'meaning'?

Just wanted to make a quick reply on this. I think that when we meditate (have some personal experience here) we do not trancend meaning, but we aquire a new meaning, more subtle than that of thought.

There is differences in meditational techniques but a common one is to watch your thoughts and not get entangled in them. This implies a shift of attention from the order of thought to a higher order (trancending the order of thought).

This relates to the discussion of the rabbit as well. Its main focus of attention is in the lower material orders. I think it knows feeling and thought as well, but the subtle observational mechanism is not there. We humans can get a quite different perspective on the material realm from our thought-based watchtower. No such thing for the rabbit. But it will get there eventually :grin:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2370997 - 02/23/04 07:29 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

thanks a lot Visio! I haven't read the entire thing yet, but I will consider it properly when I get the time (I am supposed to be on holidays right now and I need the time to do pointless stuff)

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