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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Rationality, Objectivity and Logic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4805247 - 10/14/05 11:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

therefore, there is effectively no difference between belief and knowledge, except in terms of an unknowable criterion.

Nonsense. Belief is synonymous to opinion, whereas knowledge is rooted in observation and learning. For example, I do not need to believe that the sun rises and sets everyday. I know it does.




so you don't believe that the sun rises and sets every day or you do?  all knowledge is a belief; not all belief is knowledge.

..

regarding the part of your post responding to my comments about the foundations of rationality- i think you and i are quibbling over the meaning of knowledge- for my part i've been using knowledge in a way that implies a belief that could never change, whereas you seem to view knowledge as a tentative thing.  'we know the temperature water freezes at' - even though this 'truth' cannot be known with utmost certainty, since there's always the possibility of error.

sadly, i think this is just a superficial disagreement, in the sense that it's about the way the word is used, that yields two different readings of "rationalism."  you have your preferences and i have mine.


Quote:

Nothing can be known with omniscient certainty, correct. This is irrelevant, as we are not omniscient, and therefore must focus on what is known for certain.



i don't think it's irrelvent; it's at the crux of the two interpretations of knowledge.

Quote:

everything is conjecture.

Is that right?
From dictionary.com:
con?jec?ture
n.
1.) Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
2.) A statement, opinion, or conclusion based on guesswork: The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election.
Enough said.

i'm not sure what your point is here.

The point is: By definition, not everything is conjecture.



i'm not sure what part of the definition you're looking at.  if error is always possible, then aren't rational conclusions essentially guesswork? :confused:

Quote:

The absence of omniscience can be a source of doubt ? but ultimately, this is simply to be disregarded, so that we can be certain with what we are able to attain standard certainty about. As was pointed out before: It would be irrational to constantly doubt every piece of knowledge.




if there's a possibility that the knowledge is mistaken, then i think it's rational to doubt that knowledge.

Quote:

Furthermore, if my behavior were entirely irrational, I would never arrive at the correct answer to the equation ? until I started becoming more rational, which is to say, more reasonable.



a million monkeys, typing away at a million typewriters... they might be able to come up with an answer.

Quote:

Your misconceptions of rationality say nothing about rationality and only about yourself.




ouch.
:frown:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (10/14/05 11:59 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Rationality, Objectivity and Logic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4805672 - 10/15/05 01:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

People seem to like throwing the word 'belief' around. 'Belief' is the conviction in an actuality of some sort. "This is how things are."

I'm in nearly constant doubt of EVERYTHING. Did that just 'really' happen? Am I a bodyless brain being stimulated by electrodes in some lab? Whats all this shit about Heisenburgs law? Von Neumann?
My doubt of reality extends to everything else. If I can't be sure of reality, what can I be sure of?
Living my life like this, all I seem to have is varying degrees of probability.

And, uh...

Reason without evidence (such as Vitalism) can be completely incorrect.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 13 days
Re: Rationality, Objectivity and Logic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4806516 - 10/15/05 06:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Rationality, Objectivity and Logic often fall short...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Rationality, Objectivity and Logic [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4806593 - 10/15/05 08:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Rationality, Objectivity and Logic often fall short...




Please elaborate. Fall short of what?

Do they fall short of providing the tools required to live your life? Are they not up to the task of providing knowledge?

If they do fall short at doing X, what do you propose we use in their place?




Phred


--------------------


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Rationality, Objectivity and Logic [Re: Phred]
    #4806716 - 10/15/05 10:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If they do fall short at doing X, what do you propose we use in their place?




the original poster gave definitions of these things that exceed what is usually thought of as philosophical rationalism, sort of mixing and matching between philosophical empiricism and philosophical rationalism.

from dictionary.com-

em?pir?i?cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-p?r-szm)
n.
The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.

ra?tion?al?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rsh-n-lzm)
n.
Reliance on reason as the best guide for belief and action.
Philosophy. The theory that the exercise of reason, rather than experience, authority, or spiritual revelation, provides the primary basis for knowledge.

yet another alternative to rationalism is absurdism; it's a philosophy that sadly, is completely excluded from this forum and it's name. personally i like a variety of viewpoints.

empiricism is also a good alternative to rationalism; it's more in line with the "objectivity" definition of the original post, although, i'm tempted to quibble with this use of the word "objective", since experience (accrording to a subject-object conceptualization) is the intersection of objects with subjects.

consider consistency vs contradiction: in logic, if you have two contradicting statements, you must throw one out. but in real life "i love amanda, i don't love amanda" can go together if they're consistent. there's no reason to throw one out. the statements themselves contradict if you read them literally, but may be consistent empirically.

another way of postulating an alternative is to say there's an emotional basis behind everything (including reason). thus, while i can't know for sure if i will get run over by a car if i step in front of it- fear grips me and stops me in my tracks.

IMO this view is also compatible with empiricism, because emotions are based in experience.

edit:
Quote:

Do they fall short of providing the tools required to live your life? Are they not up to the task of providing knowledge?



consider the following hypothetical: a person, for whatever reason, concludes from using their reason that they can fly, and they should jump off a large building. yet some emotion deep down, that they cannot articulate, makes them fear this strange logic. while reason points in one direction (try to fly off high buildings)- something else, technically irrational from their point of view, pulls in the other direction, and they choose the wiser course.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (10/15/05 11:08 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 10 months, 13 days
Re: Rationality, Objectivity and Logic [Re: Phred]
    #4807066 - 10/15/05 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

crunchy, thnx...
Phred, in short, fall short of describing the reality of our existence.
That for one, has reason, that we have not discovered everything yet, so intuition is one thing, a scientist still uses, to get his exploration on its way. Also it inspires personal imaginations about the bigger interrelations.
Intuittion, for one example is, what still falls short of the laws of rationality, objectivity and logic...

For the other, ratio., obectivism and logic tend to fed us with satisfaction, without us asking for more questions. Therefor, another meaning could hide behind an objective surface easily, for what we would not ask for, because all questiones were answered rationaly, obectively and logically....
you know, for example murderers love to hide behind those 'obvious' conclusions :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
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