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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/23/02
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rationality
    #5408869 - 03/16/06 03:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

rationality is either a sick joke, or a huuuge mistake.
if life has a meaning and no one told me, its a sick fucking joke.
if it doesnt, then having rationality is a huuuuge mistake.
im tired.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5408942 - 03/16/06 03:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

:what:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5408948 - 03/16/06 03:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If life has meaning and no one told you then they're sick? You may have a point.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5408961 - 03/16/06 03:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Don't think of rationality as an end in itself, more as a means to an end.

By the way your signature is cool :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBleaK
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Posts: 1,583
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Re: rationality [Re: dblaney]
    #5408980 - 03/16/06 03:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i dont think that i think of rationality as an end.
in fact my troubles come from trying to use it as a means.
it continually fails miserably.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409048 - 03/16/06 03:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"When the wrong man uses the right means, the right means work in the wrong way."

Become the right man :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: rationality [Re: dblaney]
    #5409059 - 03/16/06 03:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i dont understand how truth could be less true or more true if i were someone else.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409066 - 03/16/06 04:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
i dont think that i think of rationality as an end.
in fact my troubles come from trying to use it as a means.
it continually fails miserably.



Maybe you're just not very good at it. :shrug:


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409211 - 03/16/06 04:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

We're talking about rationality, not truth.

:smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineGomp
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409258 - 03/16/06 04:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
rationality is either a sick joke, or a huuuge mistake.
if life has a meaning and no one told me, its a sick fucking joke.
if it doesnt, then having rationality is a huuuuge mistake.
im tired.




Would it still be, if you play the joke on yourself?

:confused: :thumbup:

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409281 - 03/16/06 04:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Define rationality in your own words, in no more than a paragraph.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5410344 - 03/16/06 09:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Some schools of thought hold rationality, "the ability to reason" as what came after the eating the apple from the proverbial tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before then, (duality) it was all good and there was nothing to be rationalized. 

I'd like to show another side of rationality for people to consider.


Consider that some people used rationality to reason the creation of atomic bombs using mathematical logistics, and further used rationality to reason dropping two of them on thousands of innocent civilians. They gave warning and their demands wern't met so they then also rationalized that it was fair to bomb away on all those who never had a choice in the matter.

Some may argue that rationality also means sane reasoning. Sanity is a legal terminology for measuring ones ability to know what is legal in accordance with the law and what is not. Many sane people murder, rob and rape knowing full well, its illegal and do it anyway. Sanity means cocca too.

Some may argue that rationality also means fair and just reasoning.
So is it rational for Joe to murder Robs child because Rob murdered his?  :crazy:


If a human has no base for reasoning that rests its balancing point on the good will of all involved and compassion "fellow feeling", what is rationality but a means of reasoning a justification for ANY action?

Is what is fair and just always the way to go? If we play that way we will always be evening the score. Well, you punched me so I get to punch you. Well, you punched me back so I get to punch you back. Well you punched me back so I get to punch you back. Fair and justness doesn't always mean it's being applied to anything universally good for all involved.

Is what is mathematically logical and possible always the way to go? Plotting a successful kidnapping for ransom and a hostile corporate take over require it just the same as using it to make calculations for open heart surgery. It doesn't always mean the use of it is being applied to a universal good for all.

Is what is sane always the way to go? One can know its illegal to murder, rape and rob and reason doing it anyway. One can not know its illegal to walk around the block naked because they live in la la land, be labeled insane and yet have harmed no one. Sanity or insanity doesn't always mean its being aplied to a universal good or harm to others.

Perhaps that is what Bleak meant by rationality being a sick joke and that it doesn't give life any meaning that is extra special to anything else.

I only posted from this view to stimulate further thinking for those who like to entertain uncommon perspectives.

On a take off note, I was imagining life and a world where no one knew such a thing as bad, harm, il will, wrong, or darkness. There would be no rationality or irrationality- just non ration, nothing to judge and nothing to fear. I suppose I just described the state of total innocence. Weird to contemplate what that would be like.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5410784 - 03/16/06 11:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'd like to show another side of rationality for people to consider.

And after reading what you wrote thereafter, I must say that to be fair and accurate, you are actually showing another side of people - not rationality itself. Rationality is really an ethical tool, and as such, it can be used for bad, bad things, or it can be used for good, good things.

When one's ethical premises are structured on a malevolent or contradictory base, one's actions will naturally be detrimental to oneself or others. This is because an action based on a belief or premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will not occur if that relationship is invalid or contradictory.
Likewise, when one's ethical premises are structured on a benevolent and consistent base, one's actions will naturally be harmonious to oneself and others. This is because an action based on a premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will occur when that relationship is valid or congruent with nature.

At any rate, rationality is an essential must for our survival - there is no other alternative except to act on mere whim. To use rationality to its most glorious power, one is to have a logical and consistent hierarchal base from metaphysics through epistemology and to ethics, and thus understand the fact that rationality means acting according to reason. Reason is the faculty that identifies the information provided by our five senses, and integrates them into concepts. This means being rational is acting in accordance with the facts of reality.

Rationality is essential to our survival. It is in our self-interest to be rational, for it is only acting in accordance with the facts of reality that we can achieve desired outcomes.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: rationality [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5410970 - 03/17/06 12:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

When one's ethical premises are structured on a malevolent or contradictory base, one's actions will naturally be detrimental to oneself or others. This is because an action based on a belief or premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will not occur if that relationship is invalid or contradictory.
Likewise, when one's ethical premises are structured on a benevolent and consistent base, one's actions will naturally be harmonious to oneself and others. This is because an action based on a premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will occur when that relationship is valid or congruent with nature.




BAM! :yesnod:

You just captured there the essence of what I was breaking it down too. The thing is, who doesn't rationalize most of the time. We'd be dead or in jail if we didn't.

Yes, it is vital for our survival. Thats a given to me.

I think what needs more emphasise is not how to rationalize but an examination of the core ethics one reasons with.

Like I said, I can legitimately rationalize some pretty heinous destructive acts just on the dictionary definition of the word rational alone.

It itself is not the key to anything aspiring. But of course, with an aspiring ethical base seeking common good will for all, then rational just naturally follows, just as it would naturally follow the thinking processes of one who aspired world domination through oppression.

Until someone contributes the grounding ethics of one rational, rational itself doesn't mean much.

Sometimes I think the word itself gets gold plated. That can be a danger in disguise. If people get all caught up in beleiving that rational thinking is always the correct way to think, they may start to loose sight of what its being applied to. If so they may use logic to follow that believing "if something can be rationalized then it must be ethically correct or justified action to take." Thats not always the case. Sometimes it is.

I'm just raising awareness in general for people to think more deeply on such things. The ethics rationalization is being applied to is important.

I would rather see humans irrationally or non rationally marrying  toads believing they are soul mates then someone using rationality based on a different code of ethics from mine to plan and justify an attack like 9/11.

In short, the words rational and irrational alone don't mean much until you learn the nature of the acts the thought processes are being applied too. I hope I am being understood correctly.  :smile:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5411075 - 03/17/06 01:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

rationality is either a sick joke, or a huuuge mistake.

Whaddya mean by "rationality"?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: rationality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5411090 - 03/17/06 01:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Consider that some people used rationality to reason the creation of atomic bombs

Sames goes fer you.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5411117 - 03/17/06 01:32 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I would rather see humans irrationally or non rationally marrying toads believing they are soul mates then someone using rationality based on a different code of ethics from mine to plan and justify an attack like 9/11.

Any syllogism can be valid as long as its constructed properly.

I love toads.
I should marry things I love.
Therefore, I should marry toads.

In order for something to be irrational, it would have to violate a Law of Logic (causality, identity, etc) or contain a fallacy (non-sequitur, etc).

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: rationality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5411155 - 03/17/06 01:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I should've thought that example through better. See what rational logic can produce with such a base? Marriages to soul mate toads. :tongue:

How bout this for a harmless irrational act- wearing underwear on top of your clothes. :cool:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: rationality [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5412014 - 03/17/06 09:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

And after reading what you wrote thereafter, I must say that to be fair and accurate, you are actually showing another side of people - not rationality itself.

They go hand in hand though, rationality doesn't exist independently of a being capable of rationality.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5412074 - 03/17/06 10:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I see it like that too. The problem with rationality is, where does it get its reason from ? There are numerous possible reasons who can be argued from with rationality. Some reasons even are contradictious. But I think that has been said before.
:thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: rationality [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5412143 - 03/17/06 10:29 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
There are numerous possible reasons who can be argued from with rationality. Some reasons even are contradictious. But I think that has been said before.
:thumbup:




It has also already been stated that, if such contradictions exist, then, within the bounds of rationality, there is an error, which is to state, of course, that one is irrational.

Rationality and consistency seem to go hand-in-hand. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: rationality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5412587 - 03/17/06 12:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It has also already been stated that, if such contradictions exist, then, within the bounds of rationality, there is an error, which is to state, of course, that one is irrational.

Rationality and consistency seem to go hand-in-hand.




That thinking can lead to the same potential problem of "believing you are in the correct way of being as long as you are not contradicting yourself and being consistent".

It's not to say that repetition does not hold true time after time. It does. So what?  It's saying that what is not allowed to change can not further develop or evolve itself.

People who live within non contradiction and consistency live like a broken record never allowing themselves to move on to new methods or perspectives. In some cases that may be a good thing and in some, it may not.

You ain't nothing but a hound dog *skip
You ain't nothing but a hound dog *skip
You ain't nothing but a hound dog *skip
You ain't nothing but a hound dog *skip
You ain't nothing but a hound dog *skip

No contradictions there and total consistency. The skip allows for complete predictability in the lyrics to come.

What if car makers stayed consistent in their methods since the first model was made? No progress. Was it irrational or in error for them to break with consistency and install DVD players when a new option to add came into play?

Look at the process of maturing. As a child you are told by adults not to question authority and to do as you are told.

Later on, adults start telling you to question authority. Because it is contrary to what you first learned, does that make it an irrational thing in error of you to do in your adult life?

Say you own a restaurant and your business is a success because of your secret recipe apple pie. It is vital that your chefs consistently follow the recipe to produce the same product the customers expect to get. Here-consistency of that philosophy serves your business goals well to make money.

Say a Joe Blow opens a restaurant across the street. He makes his apple pie Lo cal. You're philosophy has always been that your pie is to perfect to ever modify.

Your customers are concerned about getting fat from eating all that pie so they start going to Joe Blows and you start loosing revenue.

Is it rational for you to keep consistent in your philosophy just to remain "correct" in your thinking and go out of business?

Would it be in error for you to modify the recipe making the pie you sell Lo Cal?

There are many examples in life where the rational thing to do is to break from consistency and contradict yourself if you are going to grow, survive and thrive.

Rationality and consistency may seem to go hand in hand and keep you from amking an error, yet in reality, they don't always nor should they where growth is taking place. :smile:

We all live in a yellow submarine *skip
We all live in a yellow submarine *skip
We all live in a yellow submarine *skip
We all live in a yellow submarine *skip
We all live in a yellow submarine *skip

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5412771 - 03/17/06 01:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

That was very :heart:-full and wisely said ! Again I am lacking words... laters :blush:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: rationality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5412831 - 03/17/06 01:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Ah yes, you remember the term 'half-knowledge' ? This kind of knowledge especially tends to lead the ego to reasonings which are settled in some contradictous 'realms of existence'...for example.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5413264 - 03/17/06 03:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
That thinking can lead to the same potential problem of "believing you are in the correct way of being as long as you are not contradicting yourself and being consistent".




Take it further from what it is to any place that you wish, but I don't see what this has to do with rationality or its relationship with consistency. :lol:

Quote:

It's not to say that repetition does not hold true time after time. It does. So what?  It's saying that what is not allowed to change can not further develop or evolve itself.




Rationality does not imply that something is not allowed to further develop, change, or evolve.

Quote:


People who live within non contradiction and consistency live like a broken record never allowing themselves to move on to new methods or perspectives. In some cases that may be a good thing and in some, it may not.




Once more, I don't comprehend what your tangent has to do with rationality. As has already been stated in this thread, rationality, logic, etc., is about a system of thought that has been properly constructed in terms of the laws that govern rationality and logic. How this relates with whatever it is that you are alluding to escapes me.

Quote:


What if car makers stayed consistent in their methods since the first model was made? No progress.




So what? This does not pertain to rationality or the discussion thereof.

Quote:


Was it irrational or in error for them to break with consistency and install DVD players when a new option to add came into play?




Rationality is a system of thought. Consistency is in regards to the fact that one does not hold opposing thoughts or lines of logic that negate or contradict each other. It has nothing to do with eternally concrete thoughts. :lol:

Quote:


Look at the process of maturing. As a child you are told by adults not to question authority and to do as you are told.




The process of maturing has nothing to do with rationality as it is being discussed.

Quote:


Later on, adults start telling you to question authority. Because it is contrary to what you first learned, does that make it an irrational thing in error of you to do in your adult life?




Systems of thought evolve. None of this addresses consistency within one's rationality.

Quote:


Is it rational for you to keep consistent in your philosophy just to remain "correct" in your thinking and go out of business?




Maybe it is rational, maybe it is not, as it lies dependant on your system of rationality. That which is being discussed is consistency in application of the laws of logic, as mushman has stated. Your topic that you have created would perhaps be better off in a new thread, since it does not relate at all to this discussion, beyond the fact that you are using some of the same words. :lol:

Quote:


Would it be in error for you to modify the recipe making the pie you sell Lo Cal?




A question for the ages, nonetheless not pertaining to consistency within one's system of rationality.

Quote:


There are many examples in life where the rational thing to do is to break from consistency and contradict yourself if you are going to grow, survive and thrive.




Most indubiantly, and, for whatever reason, you have consistently listed many of these examples. Each one demonstrates quite well how one should not behave in the same manner consistently, but yet none of them have the faintest hint of having to do with consistent application of the laws of rationality and logic within one's rationality.

Quote:


Rationality and consistency may seem to go hand in hand and keep you from amking an error, yet in reality, they don't always nor should they where growth is taking place. :smile:




Perhaps if you would not blur two entirely different subjects simply because both employ the same word, you would not come to such baseless conclusions.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: rationality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5413355 - 03/17/06 03:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Tangent? :confused:  Relax dude! :getstoned:

I just thoughtfully considered the statement you made that rationality and consistency seemed to go together.

I found that wasn't always the case where growth and change is involved and gave some easy to understand examples.

I NEVER said that rational thinking did not allow for change. To the contrary, I showed that it does and when it does, it has to break something that was consistent and that change may also result in a contradiction of the former.  :smile:

I have to jet to TKD now. :japsmile:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5413423 - 03/17/06 04:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

:shocked:

I thought I was replying to bluecoyote. :eek:

Something very strange is going on here... please do not misinterpret the tone of and points within my post. My mind is not firing correctly as it is. I thought I was replying to bluecoyote, and that my statement was being misconstrued as meaning something else, which provoked a huge response to something which wasn't even being discussed. :lol:

As I was saying, consistency in application of the laws of logic/rationality, etc. etc. etc., what mushmanthemantic said. I think it is bedtime. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: rationality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5414159 - 03/17/06 06:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

(Reply to no-one in particular.)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic saidth:
Our primary ideas about the universe appear to be made up of contingent truths (logically, they can be either true or false), and rationalism alone cannot help us verify or refute them. For example, its logically possible for me to be bald, with rationalism, we can rule out the possibility that I am bald and not-bald, but whether I am actually bald or not, logic cannot decide.




Rationalism is all about being coherent, but being coherent doesn't necessarily make things any more truthful (especially when a major or minor premise is unsound. Ex: "I should marry everything I love").

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: rationality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5414880 - 03/18/06 12:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hehe, fireworks :wink: Here I am, behind the other bush called 'half-knowledge' :wink:
[I looked up the german word 'Halbwissen' what is a doubleword in german, made out of 'half' and 'knowledge'. The dictionary gave me the word 'smattering' for it ?!]


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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