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OfflineAxiom420
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epistemology and logic
    #1221044 - 01/15/03 12:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

is there anyone that cares?


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Axiom420]
    #1221109 - 01/15/03 12:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Are you trying to say somthing about the board? Or are you really starting a thread about epistemology and logic? :confused: 


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: David_Scape]
    #1221183 - 01/15/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

yeah i'm kinda saying something about the board. i think that anyone with an opinion about science, philosophy, or spirituality should have a basic knowledge of epistemology and logic before they go running their fingers, unless they merely have a question. otherwise its kinda like having an opinion without any basis.

but it'd be really cool if we could actually get a thread going on epistemological presuppositions. but i didn't just want to have a thread titled "how do we know jack?".


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Axiom420]
    #1221373 - 01/15/03 01:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

A lot of people are a whole lot more concerned with coming to a conclusion, instead of taking the best route there.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Axiom420]
    #1221596 - 01/15/03 03:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Axiom420:  yeah i'm kinda saying something about the board....

I think this is a valid point to a certain extent.
Some of the more complex issues are often muddied up with inane posts.
Another thing, if a poster has been posting for awhile and there isn't a noticeable improvement in their posts, then, yeah, they should maybe open a book on the subject at hand (cliffs notes doesn't count).

However, Shroomism and Mr_Mushrooms are too PC to do anything about the level of ignorance often displayed here.  Though they are quite good at censoring "offensive" posts and whatnot.  :laugh: 


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Sclorch]
    #1221674 - 01/15/03 04:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

IMO, people here who may lack academic philisophical knowledge gained from textbook and other studies make up for it with their spiritual knowledge garnered from the school of life - and vice versa.  :laugh:

This forum has a great and ever-shifting balance of discussion that in it's best moments proves to be a noteworthy feat of human communication that I don't often experience in person.

Maybe Mr. Mushrooms should start tagging the appropriate threads with "Academia!" warnings a-la OTD to warn the innocent and unsuspecting emotional types  :grin:   


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1221731 - 01/15/03 04:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I've had ONE philosophy textbook (it was an intro class).
Most of my studies have been outside of a classroom.

Just because a person doesn't own a bookcase full of Carlos Castenada and books on aliens doesn't mean they're an academic philosopher. BTW, I don't think anyone here is an academic philosopher. Just citizens with questioning minds.

Merely clearing up your perspective...


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Sclorch]
    #1221805 - 01/15/03 05:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Just because a person doesn't own a bookcase full of Carlos Castenada and books on aliens doesn't mean they're an academic philosopher.




I'm aware of this, thanks  :cool:

Quote:

BTW, I don't think anyone here is an academic philosopher. Just citizens with questioning minds. 




That's good to know.  :smile:

I realize it's just your job, but for future reference you don't have to waste your time clearing my perspective. I have a dedicated staff of janitorial neurons on duty at all times when posting here!  :grin: 


Edited by dee_N_ae (01/15/03 05:23 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1221859 - 01/15/03 05:48 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I have a dedicated staff of janitorial neurons on duty at all times when posting here!

LOL!!!

whew... *wipes tears*


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1222095 - 01/15/03 07:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

...knowledge garnered from the school of life




a very popular approach these days.
but what if that which i have learned opposes that which you have learned? who is correct? what knowledge garnered from the school of life can answer this?
if one bases knowledge on one's own experience how can one insist that their knowledge is more accurate than someone else's? or is knowledge individually relative?
in either case there doesn't seem like much of a point in verbalizing an opinion. maybe we're all just fishing for some empathy.


--------------------
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Axiom420]
    #1222143 - 01/15/03 08:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

maybe we're all just fishing for some empathy.

The wise see this and get their empathy from within.
Good pondering.  :wink: 


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Axiom420]
    #1222245 - 01/15/03 10:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

food 4 thought...

Epistemology is the study of the nature, source, limits, and validity of knowledge. It is especially interested in developing criteria for evaluating claims people make that they "know" something. In particular, it considers questions such as: What is knowledge? What is the difference between knowledge and belief? If you know something, does that mean that you are certain about it? Is knowledge really possible?

Traditionally, philosophers have thought that if someone knows X, that means that he or she (1) believes that X is true, (2) X is, in fact, true, and (3) the person who claims to know X can give a justification or rationale for thinking that X is true. Such a justification can be given by appealing to intuition (immediate, personal certainty that X is true), reasoning (proving that X is true based on shared strategies of argumentation), or sense experience (public, repeatable, verifiable demonstration or experiment showing that X is true).

Despite the fact that intuition is a common phenomenon, philosophers have often been hesitant to identify it as a form of knowledge--primarily because there seems to be little way to determine whether it does, in fact, provide knowledge as opposed simply to lucky guesses. So most philosophers focus, instead, on reason and sense experience as the bases of knowledge. These two latter ways of approaching the question of knowledge are identified as rationalism and empiricism.

A rationalist epistemology claims that knowledge (as opposed to opinion) is possible only if it is based on self-evident and absolutely certain principles. Such principles are not learned through experience; instead, they are implicit in the very notion of reasoning (in Latin: ratio) itself. Sense experience cannot provide the certainty needed to guarantee that what we claim to know is true. So, like mathematicians, we have to rely on reason itself as the basis for determining whether our opinions are justified true beliefs (that is, knowledge).

Plato is an example of a rationalist. He says that sense experience fails to provide us with any guarantee that what we experience is, in fact, true. The information we get by relying on sense experience is constantly changing and is often unreliable. It can be corrected and evaluated for dependability only be appealing to principles that themselves do not change. These unchanging principles (or "Forms") are the bases of what it means to think or reason in the first place. So if someone can show that an opinion or belief he or she has is based on these undoubtable principles of thought, he or she has a firm foundation for the opinion. That foundation is what allows us to think of a belief as more than simply opinion; it is what allows us to identify the belief as justified and true, and that is what is meant by knowledge.

Knowledge for the rationalist is thus what can be deduced from principles that cannot be otherwise; they are undoubtable ("indubitable"). Examples of such principles include: "Bachelors are unmarried males," "A thing cannot be and not be at the same time in the same way," "Triangles have three sides," and "A whole is always greater than any one of its parts." These statements are known with certainty to be true because the very meaning of the terms involved (e.g., bachelors, triangles, things, wholes) requires that we think of them in certain ways (without relying on sense experience). We thus know about some things prior to any sense experience we have or could have. Such knowledge is called a priori. Any knowledge that relies on (that is, comes after or is posterior to) sense experience is called a posteriori.

Rene' Descartes (1596-1650) is another example of a rationalist. Instead of beginning philosophical inquiry (like the Milesians) with the study of the nature of reality, he suggests that we ask what it would mean to know about reality. To believe that reality is fundamentally water or the Indeterminate or whatever seems pointless, he claims, unless we know first whether our belief itself is justified. To determine whether our beliefs are justified, we have to be able to trace them back to a statement, belief, or proposition that cannot be doubted. Such a proposition could provide the firm foundation on which all subsequent beliefs could be grounded; it would guarantee that all subsequent claims based on it would be true.

In order to identify an ultimate principle of truth on which all other knowledge can be based, Descartes develops a method that suspends our confidence in what we have been taught, what our senses tell us, what we "think" is obvious--in short, in regard to everything we know. In order to determine whether there is anything we can know with certainty, he says that we first have to doubt everything we know. Such a radical doubt might not seem reasonable, and Descartes certainly does not mean that we really should doubt everything. What he suggests is that, in order to see if there is some belief that cannot be doubted, we should temporarily pretend that everything we know is questionable.

Since sense experience is sometimes deceiving, it is obvious to Descartes that a posteriori claims (e.g., that this milk tastes sour or that suit is dark blue) cannot be the basis for claims of knowledge. We do not know that what we experience through our senses is true; at least, we are not certain of it. So the best thing to do is to doubt our senses. Likewise, we cannot be sure that we really have bodies or that our experience of the world in general can be trusted; after all, we might be dreaming the whole thing. Next, we cannot even be sure that mathematical propositions such as 2+3=5 or that triangles always have three sides are true because some evil power might be deceiving us to think such things, when it is possible that even propositions that seem evident to us as true might themselves be really false. But even if an evil genie deceives us about all other beliefs, there is one belief that we cannot be mistaken about, and that is that we are thinking. Even to doubt this is to affirm it. Thinking proves that we exist (at least as minds or thinking things, regardless of whether we have bodies). The body is not an essential part of the self because we can doubt its existence in a way that we cannot doubt the existence of the mind.

So Descartes concludes that I know one thing clearly and distinctly, namely, that I exist because I think: "Cogito ergo sum," I think, therefore I exist. From this starting point I can begin to note other truths that I know clearly and distinctly, such as the principle of identity (A is A) and the notion that things in the world are "substances." Since identity and substance are ideas that are not based on sensation, they must be innate (that is, they must be implicit in the very act of thinking itself). Even sensible things (e.g., a block of wax) are knowable not based on sense experience but intellectually, insofar as we know them to be the same things even though their sensible appearances might change dramatically.

In order to be certain that we are not deceived when we claim to know something, Descartes must dispose of the evil genie. This is done by proving that an all-good, all-powerful God would not permit us to be deceived. If there is such a God, we can have knowledge. Since the senses cannot be trusted to provide a proof that God exists, only a proof based on the principle of the cogito ("I think, therefore I am") will work. That proof can be summarized in the following way:

I know I exist; but the "I" who exists is obviously imperfect; otherwise I would not have doubts about what I know in the first place. To know that I, an imperfect thing, exist means that I already know that a perfect thing must exist in terms of which my own existence is meaningful. I know what it means to be imperfect only if I already know what perfection is. But I do not know perfection in virtue of my self; therefore there must be a perfect substance (God) who exists in terms of which my own imperfect existence is intelligible. No perfect (all-good, all-powerful) being would deceive us into thinking that we know something with certainty when, in fact, we are mistaken about it. So if there is a God, then no evil genie could exist who tricks us regarding clear and distinct knowledge (such as mathematical reasoning).

We have a "great inclination" to believe that there are physical objects that are external to the mind. But since only those objects known in terms of mathematical properties--not those imagined by use of the senses--can be known clearly and distinctly, the only knowledge we can have of such objects is in terms of mathematical, quantifiable physics. The only real knowledge we can have, then, is of things understood as functions of laws of physics. The objects we see are not the objects we know, because what we know is intelligible only in terms of the clarity and precision of the formulae of physics. Information provided by the senses cannot therefore be the basis of knowledge.

Certitude is thus grounded in the knowledge of the self, which is itself intelligible only if there is a God who guarantees that we are not deceived about what we know of the world clearly and distinctly (i.e., mathematically). By appeal to reason alone, we are able to know: this is the main message of rationalism.

Objections to Rationalism:

* 1. There is no agreement among philosophers or cultures about so-called self-evident ideas. Supposedly self-evident ideas have often been rejected at later times in history.
* 2. Self-evident ideas provide no knowledge about the world. Though sense experience may not be certain, it provides us with information which is as reliable as we need. The fact that a belief is not absolutely certain should not disqualify it for knowledge. Why not say that something is known as long as there is no good reason to doubt it? Of course, that might mean that occasionally we would have to admit that what we thought we knew was something that we really didn't know. So what?


DEFINITION OF A CLAIM: A claim is that which can and must be either true or false. Nothing else in the universe possesses this feature.

DEFINITION OF VALIDITY: Validity is a feature possessed by all and only those arguments in which if we assume that the premises are all true, the conclusion cannot be false.

WHAT DETERMINES WHETHER A CLAIM IS TRUE OR FALSE? The universe (that which is). More specifically, a claim is true if the (aspect(s) of the) universe is (are) the way a claim pronounces it (them) to be. For example, 'The earth is flat' is a false claim because the earth is not flat (i.e., the universe is not the way that claim purports it to be).

An ARGUMENT is a series of claims, precisely one of which is designated as the conclusion, and (all) the other(s) of which is (are) the premise(s).

An ARGUMENT always has precisely one conclusion, but may have any number of premises as long as it is greater than zero.

A SOUND ARGUMENT is a valid argument with all true premises.

DEDUCTIVE ARGUMENTS are arguments that aim at being valid and sound.

INDUCTIVE ARGUMENTS are arguments in which, when we assume the premise(s) is (are all) true, the conclusion follows -- at best -- only highly probabilistically.

INDUCTIVE ARGUMENTS may be weak or strong, and their being so is a relative matter. What determines whether they are relatively weak or strong is the amount of support for the conclusion that is offered by the premises.

A number of implications follow immediately from the above definitions and other specifications. ?Some of these are merely re-statements of the foregoing. ?Working through these slowly by trying to say why each statement is true, may be a good way to increase your understanding of the logical concepts that we have surveyed:


1. All sound arguments are valid, but not all valid arguments are sound.
2. All and only arguments are valid or invalid.
3. All and only claims are true or false.
4. If something is a claim, it must be true or false.
5. If something is an argument, it must be valid or invalid.
6. Validity and invalidity, like truth and falsity, is an all-or-nothing matter; i.e., if something is valid, it cannot be invalid (in any degree), and if something is true, it cannot be false (in any degree).
7. Likewise, if something is valid, it cannot be invalid (in any degree); and if something is false, it cannot be true (in any degree).
8. Premises must be claims.
9. Conclusions must be claims.
10. Claims need not be conclusions.
11. Claims need not be premises.
12. What makes a claim true is not our believing it to be true.
13. What makes a claim false is not our believing it to be false.
14. No inductive arguments are valid.
15. No inductive arguments are sound.
16. No claims are valid or invalid.
17. No arguments are true, and no arguments are false.


Beliefs are one variety of cognitive states, and their objects (or contents) are claims. Cognitive states are mental states, and they are very often directed toward something other than themselves. ?When they are directed toward something, they are often referred to as intentional states. ?Here are some types of cognitive (or intentional) states: ?believing, knowing, opining, wishing, hoping, conjecturing, intending. ?Notice that these are directed toward something, and what they are directed toward is usually captured in English by something we refer to as a "that-clause": ?I believe that 2 + 2 = 4; I hope that the sun shines today; I wish that all people would spend more time studying philosophy; and so on.

Notice that beliefs themselves are not claims. ?As stated above, what makes a claim true is not our believing it to be true, and what makes a claim false is not our believing it to be false. ?Notice that in our way of defining things, it does not make sense to speak of "true beliefs" or "false beliefs," because only claims are true or false, and we now see that beliefs are not claims. ?Notice also that what follows a "that-clause" is typically a claim. ?So we can say that the content of our intentional states is specified by a that-clause which is itself a claim. ?Although our beliefs and other intentional states are neither true nor false, then, the contents of them are. ?And what we typically hope for is that the contents of them give accurate reports of the way the world is. ?That way we can say that our mental content gives a true report (at least some of the time!) of the way the world really is. ?In very loose and casual terms, what we are claiming is simply that our minds put us in touch with reality, or with what exists outside of us.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Middleman]
    #1222751 - 01/16/03 05:53 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

And there's a reason why you just HAD to cut and paste that rather than a link....


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Middleman]
    #1222887 - 01/16/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

*clap*clap*clap*
we've drawn out the resident lurker.
that was lots of fun. sounded almost like a text book.
Quote:

These two latter ways of approaching the question of knowledge are identified as rationalism and empiricism.



i would call your third one existentialism. which i would apply equally to the milesians as to nietzsche. man or man's experience of things is their basis for knowledge.
Quote:

Despite the fact that intuition is a common phenomenon, philosophers have often been hesitant to identify it as a form of knowledge--primarily because there seems to be little way to determine whether it does, in fact, provide knowledge as opposed simply to lucky guesses.



and i would associate this view with your
Quote:

cognitive states... [of]... opining, wishing, hoping, conjecturing,



and i think that all these people should read your excellent summery of rationalism, even if they don't suscribe.
Quote:

"A thing cannot be and not be at the same time in the same way,"



ah...the law of contradiction. a wonderfull little way of approaching being and thought. a great start for those unfamiliar with logic.

i think that descartes could have done better making the statement, "i think therefore i am a thinking being." but who am i to one-up a dead philosopher. of course like all rationalism its rather useless.
Quote:

* 2. Self-evident ideas provide no knowledge about the world.



this is most evident when seen through the eyes of logic. a conclusion can contain no terms not included in the original premises. after plato and aristotle it took 2300 years for rationalism to become useful, and it did so in the hands of hegel. his solution was merely to have such a great number of premises that rationalism became useful. brilliant! of course that was only 200 years ago and most people (including philosophy professors and students (of which i am neither)) still haven't picked up on hegel.

so much for smaller minds trying to fill the void left by dead philosophers.

more food 4 thought...

i would add a fourth option to our little comparitive epistemology discussion. revelation. knowledge comes through revelation. one can know the validity, soundness, and truth of a thing through revelation from god. this isn't intuition, feeling, or experience but something that comes entirely from outside of a person. this begins with a knowledge of the existance of god, which can not be proven rationally, emperically, or existentially but only through direct revelation from god to the individual. from this we can then deduce that god is a god that reveals god's self.
at first brush this seems as useless as rationalism. it becomes useful when god reveals that he has revealed quite a bit more information and had it written down. how nice of god. and this written revelation is the bible. if someone doesn't believe that the bible is god's written revelation it is merely because god hasn't revealed the truth of god's written revelation to that particular individual. now that we have a whole book full of propositions we can apply logic.
this fourth approach is best called revelational presuppositionalism.

truth requires a relation to reality, the laws of logic must be, not only the laws of thought, but the laws of reality as well.
therefore if god is the creator (as is maintained by god's written revelation) of reality god also is the creator of logic. anyone with biblical presuppositons that is not also rational is irrational and can make no claim to true knowledge.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Middleman]
    #1222950 - 01/16/03 07:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

As if I don't have enough to do! *sigh*

Your 'text' is, in a word, falderal, i.e. nonsense, bunkum, hooey, piffle, fodder for derision, babble, and any other expletive I could think of off hand.

You want to understand epistemology?

Learn the metaphysics that guide it.  If you haven't done that you are flying blind.

And that goes double for the rest of you! :wink:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: ]
    #1223098 - 01/16/03 08:43 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Your 'text' is, in a word, falderal, i.e. nonsense, bunkum, hooey, piffle, fodder for derision, babble, and any other expletive I could think of off hand.

Yeah, but what is your opinion about it?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Axiom420]
    #1223106 - 01/16/03 08:45 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Axiom, I must be tripping because your mushroom avatar is swaying in the breeze!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: epistemology and logic [Re: Swami]
    #1223729 - 01/16/03 01:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

ah, swami, i hope you are tripping.  :smirk:

anyway, i'd be glad to get some intelligent derision.  :grin:


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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