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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics.
    #3636314 - 01/16/05 09:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

During the 1980s, it became possible to determine the exact sequence of amino acids in given proteins. This revealed a new level of complexity in living beings. A single nicotine receptor, forming a highly specific "lock" coupled to an equally selective "channel", is made of five juxtaposed protein chains that contain a total of 2,500 amino acids lined up in the right order. Despite the improbability of the chance emergence of such a structure, even nematodes, which are among the most simple multicellular invertebrates, have nicotine receptors.

Confronted with this kind of complexity, some researchers no longer content themselves with the usual explanation (chance driven natural selection). Robert Wesson writes in this book Beyond natural selection: "No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics."


Why would a ringworm develop nicotine receptors identical to those of a human?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3636365 - 01/16/05 10:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know much about it, but i do know there is a whole level of existence at the micro level.. And the micro level is almost as mind boggling as the macro level such as the infinite universe, etc..

Micro is the new field.. I don't see humans exploring the galaxy anytime soon.. but I do see them figuring out the gene code and using this knowledge for good or bad


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3636500 - 01/16/05 10:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Confronted with this kind of complexity, some researchers no longer content themselves with the usual explanation (chance driven natural selection). Robert Wesson writes in this book Beyond natural selection: "No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics."

I really don't understand why complexity isn't achievable through normal physical movement. Could you explain this to me?

This is pretty much the argument Antony Flew used to justify abandoning his athiesm.

1. Life is a very complex system.
2. Concious thought can be used to create complex systems.
3. Therefore life was created with concious thought.

Can you spot the glaring logical error?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: Phluck]
    #3636619 - 01/16/05 10:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I really don't understand why complexity isn't achievable through normal physical movement. Could you explain this to me?

The fact that anything is happening at all seems fascinating and complex to me, especially "normal" physical movement.

I don't really care about the three steps Antony Flew used to justify abandoning his atheism unless they give some sort of hidden suggestion as to why a nematode would develop nicotine receptors identical to those of a human.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3636652 - 01/16/05 11:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think there are much more profound examples of the magnificence then how a worm shares nicotine receptors with humans... Like how Apes share 98% of human genes yet they swing around in trees


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3636684 - 01/16/05 11:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

My argument would be that it's most likely that when we have a better understanding of genetics, that question won't seem very important at all.

Is there any reason right now to suggest that such a similiarity is really all that bizarre? Perhaps the genetic setup for such receptors occurred way back in our evolutionary history, and is triggered by a single, relatively simple mutation. The kind of mutation that isn't too likely, but just likely enough to happen to a small handful or organisms. We do after all, share quite a bit of genetic information with even the simplest of creatures.

Jumping to the conclusion that it must be "something else" is a cop out. Just because you don't have a detailed, confirmed, and satisfactory explanation readily available to you doesn't mean it's time to start saying magic was involved.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: Phluck]
    #3636790 - 01/16/05 11:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

My argument would be that it's most likely that when we have a better understanding of genetics, that question won't seem very important at all.

Why are you arguing with a question? (Why would a ringworm develop nicotine receptors identical to those of a human?)

Is there any reason right now to suggest that such a similiarity is really all that bizarre?

I didn't suggest it was bizarre, but now that I think about it it is strange that animals that will never ingest nicotine would have a receptor for them. I don't know what that implies, maybe you have a suggestion?

Jumping to the conclusion that it must be "something else" is a cop out. Just because you don't have a detailed, confirmed, and satisfactory explanation readily available to you doesn't mean it's time to start saying magic was involved.

Did I imply that I thought it was something "something else" or "other than"?

Did I mention magic?

Why the hell are you being so hostile?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3636860 - 01/16/05 11:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Why are you arguing with a question? (Why would a ringworm develop nicotine receptors identical to those of a human?)

I don't think it's a relevant or necessary question.

I didn't suggest it was bizarre, but now that I think about it it is strange that animals that will never ingest nicotine would have a receptor for them. I don't know what that implies, maybe you have a suggestion?

It's a receptor that picks up nicotine, not FOR nicotine. The reason nicotine stimulates the receptors is because it's similar to chemicals that are already in your brain. Now that I reread what you said, it seems to imply that pretty much anything with a nervous system has them. In which case it's damned easy to explain why both humans and ringworms have them: they were part of the earliest nervous systems, and remain part of more complex nervous systems.

Did I imply that I thought it was something "something else" or "other than"?
Did I mention magic?


Well, you implied that chance wasn't enough to explain the complex systems in various life forms, which I don't think is a justified conclusion to reach. Do you have any theories as to what may have been involved, or is it just "something else"?

Why the hell are you being so hostile?

I didn't realize that counted as being hostile. Am I going to be banned now?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: Phluck]
    #3636950 - 01/17/05 12:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It's a receptor that picks up nicotine, not FOR nicotine.

"A single nicotine receptor, forming a highly specific "lock" coupled to an equally selective "channel", is made of five juxtaposed protein chains that contain a total of 2,500 amino acids lined up in the right order."

Maybe I misinterpreted that? When I read that it it seems to suggest that the receptor is specifically for nicotine.

Well, you implied that chance wasn't enough to explain the complex systems in various life forms, which I don't think is a justified conclusion to reach.

Robert Wesson said that, I didn't imply agreeance by asking why a ringworm would develop nicotine receptors identical to those of a humans, I can't figure where you're pulling that from.

You're trying to debunk ideas I never had or agreed with?

It's a receptor that picks up nicotine, not FOR nicotine. The reason nicotine stimulates the receptors is because it's similar to chemicals that are already in your brain. Now that I reread what you said, it seems to imply that pretty much anything with a nervous system has them. In which case it's damned easy to explain why both humans and ringworms have them: they were part of the earliest nervous systems, and remain part of more complex nervous systems.

Why didn't you start with that? That is an answer to my question. Thanks. :grin:

I didn't realize that counted as being hostile. Am I going to be banned now?

Did they start banning people when I feel they are being hostile?

I don't think you'll be banned.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3637154 - 01/17/05 12:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe I misinterpreted that? When I read that it it seems to suggest that the receptor is specifically for nicotine.

http://www.neurosci.pharm.utoledo.edu/MBC3320/nicotinic.htm

I read the post, saw an opinion that I disagreed with, and gave my point of view. I thought that your question was somehow related to the idea you mentioned, and titled the thread after.

I don't even see where I was aggressive.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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