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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890646 - 09/18/02 10:01 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)

> No, the universe isn't made out of 1's and 0's.

It's made out of 1's and 0's and everything in between...

> Also, an infinitely complex image (such as a fractal, or the universe) can be created by repeating a simple equation, which can also be expressed in binary form.

To assume that the simple equation produces repetitive results such as in a fractal is to ignore the "uncertainty priciple" and how human consciousness is able to exploit this to it's own end.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890663 - 09/18/02 10:13 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)

To assume that the simple equation produces repetitive results such as in a fractal is to ignore the "uncertainty priciple"

You don't understand fractals. They don't only produce "repetitive results", they can produce unpredictable results. The uncertainty principle fits perfectly with fractals and chaos theory.


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890688 - 09/18/02 10:25 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)



Ok, if I take a look at this fractal image it almost looks random. However, if I could step back and see the bigger picture I would see that it wasn?t. A fractal is predictable. The results don?t suddenly change.

I feel that chaos is more than seemingly infinite complexity.

But your right. Perhaps I don?t understand fractals. I?ll take some time to study them.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890707 - 09/18/02 10:36 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)

so are you saying that the laws of thermal dynamics are wrong?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #890712 - 09/18/02 10:38 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)

Teach me the laws of thermal dynamics and I'll let you know.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890838 - 09/18/02 11:44 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)

im sorry. its actually thermodynamics.

"The field of thermodynamics studies the behavior of energy flow in natural systems. From this study, a number of physical laws have been established. The laws of thermodynamics describe some of the fundamental truths of thermodynamics observed in our Universe. Understanding these laws is important to students of Physical Geography because many of the processes studied involve the flow of energy.



First Law of Thermodynamics

The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one system to another in many forms. However, it can not be created nor destroyed. Thus, the total amount of energy available in the Universe is constant. Einstein's famous equation (written below) describes the relationship between energy and matter:

E = MC2
In the equation above, energy (E) is equal to matter (M) times the square of a constant (C). Einstein suggested that energy and matter are interchangeable. His equation also suggests that the quantity of energy and matter in the Universe is fixed.



Second Law of Thermodynamics

Heat can never pass spontaneously from a colder to a hotter body. As a result of this fact, natural processes that involve energy transfer must have one direction, and all natural processes are irreversible. This law also predicts that the entropy of an isolated system always increases with time. Entropy is the measure of the disorder or randomness of energy and matter in a system. Because of the second law of thermodynamics both energy and matter in the Universe are becoming less useful as time goes on. Perfect order in the Universe occurred the instance after the Big Bang when energy and matter and all of the forces of the Universe were unified.



Third Law of Thermodynamics

The third law of thermodynamics states that if all the thermal motion of molecules (kinetic energy) could be removed, a state called absolute zero would occur. Absolute zero results in a temperature of 0 Kelvin or -273.15 degrees Celsius."





--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890877 - 09/18/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 4 days ago)

I didn't say fractals are random. They obviously are not - if you input the same equation, you'll get the same result every time.

I said that they can produce unpredictable results. It's impossible to know how the fractal will turn out if you change a variable. The only way to find out is to do the actual calculations. Changing a variable, however small, can have unintended and unpredictable consequences (chaos theory). With a sufficient number of iterations, a small difference will begin to manifest itself exponentially.

A fractal is also indefinite and infinite - it's like an irrational number. It's only as accurate as the number of iterations or calculations performed. The true shape of a fractal can NEVER be known. Just like in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, the precise position of a particle can never be known. Just like the precise value of pi (an irrational number) can never be known. Just like the surface area of a tree can never be known.

All these things give the illusion of randomness but underlying it all is a simple elegent equation - an equation made up of numbers and algebraic variables, which can be further broken down into 0's and 1's, yin and yang. It can't be reduced any further.

Another example: A perfect circle can NEVER exist in nature. It is purely a mathematical concept. Where does it come from?

The reason we can't see the simple equation behind the chaotic universe is because of the principle of entropy. Simple ---> Complex. It's a one way street.
We can't look at a fractal and guess the equation that spawned it.

Only under very *special* circumstances can we get a glimpse of the source. It's not something that can be communicated through words, but I know some of you have experienced this. It's a sight to behold.



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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #890912 - 09/18/02 12:17 PM (19 years, 4 days ago)

The answer to your question is yes and no.

I feel that you were specifically refering to the 1st law of thermodynamics which was defined by Einstein's famous law of relativity since people seem to always bring that up at some point when discussing physics.

I believe that Einstein was absolutely correct about the observation in it's context. I would also add that this law breaks down at the quantum level and ceases to apply anymore.

So.. Yes and No..

If I'm not mistaken, current physics theory is light years ahead of Einstein's ideas. See Hawking or Kaku, etc. He may have provided the framework for current theories but by no means was he all knowing. People don't remember his mistakes.

What I'm talking about is the elusive unified theory which describes everything.
The equation E=MC2 is simply an effect of a much more basic rule. A rule which defines all static behaviours and allows for uncertainty.

How do you justify quantum behaviour that defies the speed of light? Einstein tried to fit quantum mechanics into the framework of his observed laws but couldn't. There is an element of uncertainty that he couldn't rationalize at the time. His universe was neat and tidy and devoid of free will.

I need a drink..





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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890913 - 09/18/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 4 days ago)

Just because patterns emerge doesn't mean everything is a pattern.

Just because randomness could be an illusion doesn't mean it is.

Just because something could be the opposite of what it seems doesn't mean it is.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 349
Loc: It's all in your head...
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890941 - 09/18/02 12:30 PM (19 years, 4 days ago)

> It's impossible to know how the fractal will turn out if you change a variable.

But who changes the variable?

> Just like in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, the precise position of a particle can never be known.

I agree. This to me means that we are incapable of knowing that rule or equation (for now). That doesn't mean that the particle doesn't have a specific position; just that we can not see it without affecting it. Beyond this though I believe there is a fuzzy logic to the rule. It's just easier to rationalize 0.0000000001 and 0.9999999999 as 0 and 1.

BTW, I'm just rambling. Don't take me too seriously. I think we actually believe the same things except on the idea of predestination.





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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: reality theory [Re: Nomad]
    #890999 - 09/18/02 01:00 PM (19 years, 4 days ago)

Although Sclorch may disagree, I'm arguing that existance - the observation that some things exist and others don't - is a natural phenomena that would have to yield a scientific explanation like anything else. Now, let's assume that we have a theory for existance: an explanation for why things exist. Since this explanation would itself be existing, it follows that it would have to be the explanation for it's own existance, which is a logical fallacy (A is B because B is A - doesn't work).

Nomad,
Totally agree. Check out the tail end of Mr. Mushroom's "Truth?" thread, although it may require a little back-reading to catch up.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #891423 - 09/18/02 05:03 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

Just because patterns emerge doesn't mean everything is a pattern.

Patterns provide us with a conceptual framework to understand the universe. Science and mathematics are based on patterns. It doesn't mean that the "real" universe has some grand pattern to it. It just means that's the way WE see the universe.

Just because randomness could be an illusion doesn't mean it is.

Randomness is untestable. Many things we consider random are actually being affected by an infinite number of variables. So the path of a galaxy can be logical but unpredictable, just as it would be if it was truly random. This is why randomness is untestable.

Just because something could be the opposite of what it seems doesn't mean it is.

I'm not talking opposites here. I'm reconciling a contrived duality - order and chaos - with fractals.




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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #891559 - 09/18/02 06:06 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got your definitions all bungled up.

Instead of the word "chaos", try using "randomness"... chaos theory has marred the true meaning of chaos.

As for the fractals... they ARE NOT the border between randomness and order. They are order. Don't misunderstand this. This is not a contrived duality. This is one of those situations that IS black and white only. No gray area exists. Though many try to claim that fractals are the gray area... they have an equation = they have order. Just because it's really complex and the human mind can be tricked into thinking some fractals are random (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I've never been tricked), it doesn't follow that fractals can mend the gap between order and randomness.

Like the determinism vs. free will battle, this duality stays. Sorry.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #891888 - 09/18/02 08:45 PM (19 years, 3 days ago)

Ummmm.... maybe you misunderstood.

I never said fractals are random.

earlier I said:
"I didn't say fractals are random. They obviously are not"
and
"All these things give the illusion of randomness but underlying it all is a simple elegent equation"

I used "chaos" instead of "randomness" because of their different meaning, not because I got them confused.

they have an equation = they have order

My point exactly. As I've said "if you input the same equation, you'll get the same result every time"

Fractals don't bridge order and randomness, but it can explain seemingly random events such as the weather, or the path of a particle etc. They all follow equations.

Let me ask you this: what is the difference between "true" randomness and apparent randomness? A particle in motion might appear to have random motions but it is actually being affected by an infinite number of variables. Every particle in the universe exerts a force on that one particle, so even if its motion is ordered, its motion can never be predicted and its precise position can never be known. For all intents and purposes, the behaviour of the particle is random, even if it is being controlled by mathematical equations. It would require an infinitely powerful computer to simulate the motion of the particle. What is randomness but the inability to predict?



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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: reality theory [Re: buttonion]
    #892389 - 09/19/02 02:00 AM (19 years, 3 days ago)

Totally agree. Check out the tail end of Mr. Mushroom's "Truth?" thread, although it may require a little back-reading to catch up.

Thanks! The length of that thread scares the hell out of me, but I'll give it a try. Menawhile, I'm enjoying my ignorance by replying to the tail end without having a clue what the discussion was all about...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #892415 - 09/19/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 3 days ago)

You don't understand fractals. They don't only produce "repetitive results", they can produce unpredictable results. The uncertainty principle fits perfectly with fractals and chaos theory.

Because we are unable to predict the form a fractal will make does not mean it is related in any way to the uncertainty principle (as in quantuum physics). A specific formula will ALWAYS give the same picture.

The uncertainty principle says that the exact same set of circumstances may give DIFFERENT results, such as in radioactive decay.

Please note the difference.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: reality theory [Re: Swami]
    #892422 - 09/19/02 02:41 AM (19 years, 3 days ago)

As I've said "if you input the same equation, you'll get the same result every time"

The uncertainty principle says that the exact same set of circumstances may give DIFFERENT results, such as in radioactive decay.

But you can never recreate EXACTLY the same set of circumstances. If you could, who's to say that things won't repeat exactly?

The rate of radioactive decay can't be precisely predicted because there are an infinite number of variables, which obviously can't be reproduced. The same goes for the behavior of subatomic particles or the orbit of celestial objects or the weather.
The "uncertainty" in the uncertainty principle isn't an inherent property of the thing being measured. It's a property of the the act of measuring.







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Anonymous

Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #892580 - 09/19/02 06:30 AM (19 years, 3 days ago)

Good dialogue from both of you.

My Quantum broke down. Anybody know a good mechanic?

Cheers,


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #905726 - 09/24/02 11:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

theoretically couldn't you create a program that emulates our universe, if the computer was powerfull enough, using ones and zeros.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #906235 - 09/25/02 02:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

theoretically couldn't you create a program that emulates our universe

That's what some say.
I disagree.

I say randomness exists... and if a computer cannot truly be random (complex algorithms are NOT random), then it cannot truly model our universe.

Besides, a theory needs evidence... otherwise it's just speculation.
NO, there is no real evidence that such a program is possible.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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