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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
reality theory
    #874049 - 09/10/02 08:40 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

reality is an expression of the infinite possibilities of data, (ones and zeros, ups and downs, ons and offs, light and dark, hot and cold, expansion and contraction) fractalizing outward and inward into infinity through time exponentially increasing in complexity. our conciousness lies on the arm of the fractal just as everything else does. The limbs of a tree, the suns pulsating, waves of light, the universe expanding and contracting, the existance of self awareness. we are all connected on the fractal of reality.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #874140 - 09/10/02 09:17 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

> our conciousness lies on the arm of the fractal just as everything else does.

as in the arm of the Milky Way?


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #874147 - 09/10/02 09:21 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

as in an expression of data. the electric pulses in our brain and throughout our body.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #874158 - 09/10/02 09:27 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

everything consists in its basic form of pure data. the fact that something had to come before something else (evolution) the data started out simple and made itself more complex expanding into different dimensions 2nd 3rd 4th, matter, expressing itself in different forms 1=on 0 =off 1011001=a, dna, rna etc,... as the new forms of data get more complex it creates more ways of expressing data into an endless cycle to where the beginning is hard to decifer. Just looking at an organism can you see its dna? no. reality hides its base in its complexity.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #874164 - 09/10/02 09:34 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

matter is energy condensed into a slow vibration. a vibration (or wave) is a form of data (wavelength, intensity ups and downs). matter is an expression of data. This is kind of like a yin-yang theory only not.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #874340 - 09/10/02 11:09 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

"I am a fractal, a reflection of the divine hologram.
Even the tiniest atom is as holy and complete as this entire universe."


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
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Re: reality theory [Re: Adamist]
    #874856 - 09/10/02 02:52 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

In reply to:

"I am a fractal, a reflection of the divine hologram.
Even the tiniest atom is as holy and complete as this entire universe."



amen


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #874920 - 09/10/02 03:26 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

> everything consists in its basic form of pure data

if everything is data, how does data change?


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #874960 - 09/10/02 03:44 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

through natural tendancies of physics.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Offlinethe universe
Harbinger ofEldritch Despair
Male

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Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #875036 - 09/10/02 04:14 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

That as of yet unexplainable bit of information is easily explained with one useless word: god.


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"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: the universe]
    #875252 - 09/10/02 06:08 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

elaborate on how physics is god. Most definitions of "god" refer to some kind of being with a conciousness. physics has a conciousness?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #876081 - 09/11/02 01:56 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

> through natural tendancies of physics

what is physics made of? data?


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlinethe universe
Harbinger ofEldritch Despair
Male

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #876262 - 09/11/02 03:37 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

I think the laws of physics just might have a conciousness. What I was referring to with the word god was though, that anything as of yet unexplainable is easily explained with the word god. We have no clue why the laws of physics are what they are. It's god. That's all I was trying to say.


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"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: the universe]
    #877559 - 09/11/02 11:44 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Natural tendancies of physics are averages and statistics that have extremes but always pull back in the other direction over time. there is always an average or an equilibrium to the universe. for every action there is a reaction. the second law of thermodynamics. the more actions and reactions the more chaos but chaos tends to follow a yin yang pattern of highs and lows, ones and zeros, blacks and whites, pulling at eachother always keeping an equilibrium. no matter how complex the universe gets there will always be an equilibrium. I believe that the universe expands into infinite complexity and contracts into a singularity. it reaches an extremely complex state and then pulls back and starts over from a singularity and then the laws of statistics and physics create a new reality with different expressions of possibilities. I have no real evidence to prove any of this. just pure philosophical speculation.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: reality theory [Re: Adamist]
    #877704 - 09/11/02 12:28 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)





OM


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880441 - 09/12/02 01:22 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

OM?
Hey! where's all the tweaked out philisophical bashers at?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #880446 - 09/12/02 01:25 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

bash        bash bash bash bash    bash :grin: 

Im the mad basher!!!


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You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


Edited by bluesky (09/12/02 01:26 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #880449 - 09/12/02 01:26 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Maybe they're chasing a trail of smoke and reason...  :smile: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #880616 - 09/12/02 02:55 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Interesting speculation. How does this square with the principle of parsimony? While thought provoking your thread lacks enough substance as to rend it slightly incomprehensible.

Care to elaborate?

Cheers,


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #881516 - 09/13/02 09:21 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

> we are all an arm on the fractal of reality

It sounds very pretty.

Make a prediction or statement from it.

IMO it has to be useful to be true. If not, why do you expect anyone to believe you?


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #883767 - 09/14/02 10:47 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

i dont expect anyone to believe me. just think about it. it doesn't have to have any meaning. that's an individuals interpretation that gives it meaning. just want people to think about the origin.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #884674 - 09/16/02 03:04 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

reality is an expression of the infinite possibilities of data, (ones and zeros, ups and downs, ons and offs, light and dark, hot and cold, expansion and contraction)

I hate do disagree (no, actually I love to), but reality does most definitely not consist of 1's and 0's. Nature doesn't care about such bullshit. Have a look at your brain... closer... look at a neuron, the basic functional unit of your mind. Watch it, it either fires or it doesn't fire, that's all it is capable of doing. Everything you perceive either arouses or inhibits, and, you guess it, that's were 1 and 0 comes from. It's a creation of your brain. A fiction, basically. Day and Night, male and female, shit and gold - your brain amasses loads of 1's and 0's to make sense of incoming data, but nature doesn't care about making sense.

Look at a yin yang:



It is easy to see the 1 and the 0 in this symbol, but without the S - like shape in the middle, none of them would exist. Reality doesn't consist of 1 and 0, but of S and & and @ and

and ?. And I'm not even mentioning the weird three symbols to the left of the yin yang. But then your brain comes along and perceives the S as 00 and the & as 01 and the @ as 10 and the ? as 11. And the

is not perceived by you at all.

Taoism is about mind and not about matter.

Damn, I'm wise.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #884688 - 09/16/02 03:37 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

>just think about it. it doesn't have to have any meaning

oh NOW im convinced. lol


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: Nomad]
    #884936 - 09/16/02 07:04 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

"look at a neuron, the basic functional unit of your mind. Watch it, it either fires or it doesn't fire"

That's exactly my point. are you saying that humans consciously do this or is involuntary. everything in nature if you look at it in its most basic form is on off switches. There is a duality in nature is all im saying and elaborates on itself into infinite complexity.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #884941 - 09/16/02 07:06 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

im not trying to convince anyone. i just have had this theory for a while and i wanted to open it to scrutiny in an open forum.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: 1stimer]
    #884951 - 09/16/02 07:11 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)



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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

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Re: reality theory [Re: ]
    #885307 - 09/16/02 10:03 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

i have a theory:

we are all just sprinkles on a donut,
and there are only two types of sprinkles.

mmm donut


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man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (09/16/02 10:27 AM)


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #887189 - 09/17/02 04:11 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

That's exactly my point. are you saying that humans consciously do this or is involuntary. everything in nature if you look at it in its most basic form is on off switches. There is a duality in nature is all im saying and elaborates on itself into infinite complexity.

I'm arguing that the only thing in the universe operating with on and off switches is the human brain. And that, as a consequence, everywhere you look in nature you see on and off switches, because your brain is unable to process information except by switching neurons on and off. Sort of like: If you've only got a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.

And introducing consciousness when we were being reductionist is seriously bad style.  :wink:
   


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Anonymous

Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #887261 - 09/17/02 05:17 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I'm glazed.


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InvisiblePeaceful_Nomad
On the Path ofthe Feather
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Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 447
Loc: Sometimes Kansas - Maybe ...
Re: reality theory [Re: Nomad]
    #887271 - 09/17/02 05:29 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I theorize every individual is "equipped" with ALL the knowledge
of the universe. With this internal (eternal) equipment we posess, the
beauty of what we consider life (collective reality) is to just BE.

I feel reality is ultimately up to each individual, and is created through choices
made during that individual's physical existence. I also think most individuals who
seem to truly enjoy life, are those who are fortunate to find a reasonable
facsimile of balance on a regular basis.

Everything physical is only a temporary state of being. Sometimes the answers
we seek are revealed when the mind is most still, and the inner voices are silent

When we view humanity, we see reflections of ourselves within each individual.
The more we recognize ourselves in others, despite judgment, "reality" seems
to shift and more pieces of the puzzle of life seem to fit.

Data and theory can only create a belief system. Living and being create a "Know"
system. The daily struggle is to balance beliefs with knowledge, finding the warm
glow of a pleasant reality somewhere in between the two.

Peace to Everyone,

Peaceful Nomad


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: Nomad]
    #888052 - 09/17/02 11:45 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

the human brain isn't the only thing in the universe that has on off switches. look at light waves and sound waves. ups and downs. everything is basically a vibration which is an up and a down. when you take a step there is pressure put on the earth and the earth pushes back with the same opposite force. im not saying that the universe is a computer program playing on somones computer (although a case could be made that we live in a synthetic universe). im relating this constant duality, black and white, 1s and 0s, etc... to everything in the universe. its not unique to how human perception is modulated. it is scientific fact in nature. Are you saying that physics isn't universal and it only applies to the human mind? There is this balance and the balance is always there but the complexity is ever increasing. the universe is constantly moving towards entropy yet there is still order to it. entropy does not necessarily mean chaos it just means more and more reactions and opposite reactions into increasing complexity into what to a simple mind might seem like chaos but to (if it were possible) a more complex mind could see all the forces at work and see some sort of order.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #889352 - 09/17/02 08:05 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

flintstones, meet the flintstones.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #889379 - 09/17/02 08:15 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Yeah... I used to think that.
It sure brings back memories....

Then I realized that it's pointless to live in such a universe. Hope would be meaningless... and change would be scripted. Nah... fuck that.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #889638 - 09/17/02 10:31 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

You used to think that about the Flintstones?


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #889742 - 09/17/02 11:23 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

I prefer to think of life as a pattern generated by a genetic algorithm. We are cellular automata not branches of a fractal.

In my opinion it's not the 1's and 0's which are important since these are only the result of the true "meaning of life" which is, of course, that fundamental rule which governs all things from the quantum to the cosmic.

Understand that rule and all things become possible. In this respect we are not governed by a predefined destiny. We control our future by changing the inputs (making decisions.)


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InvisiblePeaceful_Nomad
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Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890027 - 09/18/02 03:31 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

MindTrap ~ Well Said.

Peaceful Nomad


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: reality theory [Re: ]
    #890277 - 09/18/02 06:27 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Betty is totally hot!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: reality theory [Re: Swami]
    #890308 - 09/18/02 06:44 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

LOL! :grin:  Funny, I thought that as a child.  Later, when I grew up, I realized that she had co-dependent issues that lead to spousal abuse and that Barney was no good for her.  It's just as well.  I am a better man than Barney but women like that cannot see it. 


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #890567 - 09/18/02 09:12 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

im relating this constant duality, black and white, 1s and 0s, etc... to everything in the universe. its not unique to how human perception is modulated. it is scientific fact in nature. Are you saying that physics isn't universal and it only applies to the human mind?

I'd say that treating the universe as a giant mass of 1's and 0's is the kind of crude approximation which works quite well for some purposes. I think we evolved a binary brain precisely because 1's and 0's work very reliably when we have to decide if we pet the lion or scream and run away. But I don't think it's the real thing. Even now, when physics is approaching the subatomic level, it becomes increasingly hard to map our perceptions to 1's and 0's - we have to introduce "unecrtainty" and whatnot. I think there will be a point where this approch fails entirely.

But if you insist that the universe consists of 1's and 0's, it would be safe to assume that we can entirely understand the universe by means of logic. If you subscribe to that, let's take a moment to look at the miracle of existance (my favourite topic when I'm drunk).

Although Sclorch may disagree, I'm arguing that existance - the observation that some things exist and others don't - is a natural phenomena that would have to yield a scientific explanation like anything else. Now, let's assume that we have a theory for existance: an explanation for why things exist. Since this explanation would itself be existing, it follows that it would have to be the explanation for it's own existance, which is a logical fallacy (A is B because B is A - doesn't work).

In other words, I'm with Terence McKenna, who said (quoting someone else whom I forgot (but which doesn't matter because no doubt both of them are already dead)): "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, but it is stranger than we can imagine."

Or, to borrow a metaphor: "If the universe is a donut, eat it."


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: reality theory [Re: Nomad]
    #890609 - 09/18/02 09:34 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

No, the universe isn't made out of 1's and 0's.

Duality is not the fundamental nature of the universe - it is the fundamental nature of human thought.

But consider this: Everything in the universe can be broken down into 0's and 1's.
Also, an infinitely complex image (such as a fractal, or the universe) can be created by repeating a simple equation, which can also be expressed in binary form. All the properties of a physical object can be expressed in the binary language. It is the simplest way of storing/transmitting/processing data.

We are talking about a "reality theory" here. If our reality is limited by our binary brains, is it less "real"?

The binary/dualistic reality that is perceived by the human mind is just as valid as the "real" universe... in fact, it IS the real universe. We are seeing the universe just as we were meant to.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890646 - 09/18/02 10:01 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

> No, the universe isn't made out of 1's and 0's.

It's made out of 1's and 0's and everything in between...

> Also, an infinitely complex image (such as a fractal, or the universe) can be created by repeating a simple equation, which can also be expressed in binary form.

To assume that the simple equation produces repetitive results such as in a fractal is to ignore the "uncertainty priciple" and how human consciousness is able to exploit this to it's own end.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890663 - 09/18/02 10:13 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

To assume that the simple equation produces repetitive results such as in a fractal is to ignore the "uncertainty priciple"

You don't understand fractals. They don't only produce "repetitive results", they can produce unpredictable results. The uncertainty principle fits perfectly with fractals and chaos theory.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890688 - 09/18/02 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)



Ok, if I take a look at this fractal image it almost looks random. However, if I could step back and see the bigger picture I would see that it wasn?t. A fractal is predictable. The results don?t suddenly change.

I feel that chaos is more than seemingly infinite complexity.

But your right. Perhaps I don?t understand fractals. I?ll take some time to study them.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890707 - 09/18/02 10:36 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

so are you saying that the laws of thermal dynamics are wrong?


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #890712 - 09/18/02 10:38 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Teach me the laws of thermal dynamics and I'll let you know.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890838 - 09/18/02 11:44 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

im sorry. its actually thermodynamics.

"The field of thermodynamics studies the behavior of energy flow in natural systems. From this study, a number of physical laws have been established. The laws of thermodynamics describe some of the fundamental truths of thermodynamics observed in our Universe. Understanding these laws is important to students of Physical Geography because many of the processes studied involve the flow of energy.



First Law of Thermodynamics

The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one system to another in many forms. However, it can not be created nor destroyed. Thus, the total amount of energy available in the Universe is constant. Einstein's famous equation (written below) describes the relationship between energy and matter:

E = MC2
In the equation above, energy (E) is equal to matter (M) times the square of a constant (C). Einstein suggested that energy and matter are interchangeable. His equation also suggests that the quantity of energy and matter in the Universe is fixed.



Second Law of Thermodynamics

Heat can never pass spontaneously from a colder to a hotter body. As a result of this fact, natural processes that involve energy transfer must have one direction, and all natural processes are irreversible. This law also predicts that the entropy of an isolated system always increases with time. Entropy is the measure of the disorder or randomness of energy and matter in a system. Because of the second law of thermodynamics both energy and matter in the Universe are becoming less useful as time goes on. Perfect order in the Universe occurred the instance after the Big Bang when energy and matter and all of the forces of the Universe were unified.



Third Law of Thermodynamics

The third law of thermodynamics states that if all the thermal motion of molecules (kinetic energy) could be removed, a state called absolute zero would occur. Absolute zero results in a temperature of 0 Kelvin or -273.15 degrees Celsius."





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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: reality theory [Re: MindTrap]
    #890877 - 09/18/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

I didn't say fractals are random. They obviously are not - if you input the same equation, you'll get the same result every time.

I said that they can produce unpredictable results. It's impossible to know how the fractal will turn out if you change a variable. The only way to find out is to do the actual calculations. Changing a variable, however small, can have unintended and unpredictable consequences (chaos theory). With a sufficient number of iterations, a small difference will begin to manifest itself exponentially.

A fractal is also indefinite and infinite - it's like an irrational number. It's only as accurate as the number of iterations or calculations performed. The true shape of a fractal can NEVER be known. Just like in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, the precise position of a particle can never be known. Just like the precise value of pi (an irrational number) can never be known. Just like the surface area of a tree can never be known.

All these things give the illusion of randomness but underlying it all is a simple elegent equation - an equation made up of numbers and algebraic variables, which can be further broken down into 0's and 1's, yin and yang. It can't be reduced any further.

Another example: A perfect circle can NEVER exist in nature. It is purely a mathematical concept. Where does it come from?

The reason we can't see the simple equation behind the chaotic universe is because of the principle of entropy. Simple ---> Complex. It's a one way street.
We can't look at a fractal and guess the equation that spawned it.

Only under very *special* circumstances can we get a glimpse of the source. It's not something that can be communicated through words, but I know some of you have experienced this. It's a sight to behold.



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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #890912 - 09/18/02 12:17 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

The answer to your question is yes and no.

I feel that you were specifically refering to the 1st law of thermodynamics which was defined by Einstein's famous law of relativity since people seem to always bring that up at some point when discussing physics.

I believe that Einstein was absolutely correct about the observation in it's context. I would also add that this law breaks down at the quantum level and ceases to apply anymore.

So.. Yes and No..

If I'm not mistaken, current physics theory is light years ahead of Einstein's ideas. See Hawking or Kaku, etc. He may have provided the framework for current theories but by no means was he all knowing. People don't remember his mistakes.

What I'm talking about is the elusive unified theory which describes everything.
The equation E=MC2 is simply an effect of a much more basic rule. A rule which defines all static behaviours and allows for uncertainty.

How do you justify quantum behaviour that defies the speed of light? Einstein tried to fit quantum mechanics into the framework of his observed laws but couldn't. There is an element of uncertainty that he couldn't rationalize at the time. His universe was neat and tidy and devoid of free will.

I need a drink..





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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890913 - 09/18/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Just because patterns emerge doesn't mean everything is a pattern.

Just because randomness could be an illusion doesn't mean it is.

Just because something could be the opposite of what it seems doesn't mean it is.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #890941 - 09/18/02 12:30 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

> It's impossible to know how the fractal will turn out if you change a variable.

But who changes the variable?

> Just like in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, the precise position of a particle can never be known.

I agree. This to me means that we are incapable of knowing that rule or equation (for now). That doesn't mean that the particle doesn't have a specific position; just that we can not see it without affecting it. Beyond this though I believe there is a fuzzy logic to the rule. It's just easier to rationalize 0.0000000001 and 0.9999999999 as 0 and 1.

BTW, I'm just rambling. Don't take me too seriously. I think we actually believe the same things except on the idea of predestination.





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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: reality theory [Re: Nomad]
    #890999 - 09/18/02 01:00 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Although Sclorch may disagree, I'm arguing that existance - the observation that some things exist and others don't - is a natural phenomena that would have to yield a scientific explanation like anything else. Now, let's assume that we have a theory for existance: an explanation for why things exist. Since this explanation would itself be existing, it follows that it would have to be the explanation for it's own existance, which is a logical fallacy (A is B because B is A - doesn't work).

Nomad,
Totally agree. Check out the tail end of Mr. Mushroom's "Truth?" thread, although it may require a little back-reading to catch up.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #891423 - 09/18/02 05:03 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Just because patterns emerge doesn't mean everything is a pattern.

Patterns provide us with a conceptual framework to understand the universe. Science and mathematics are based on patterns. It doesn't mean that the "real" universe has some grand pattern to it. It just means that's the way WE see the universe.

Just because randomness could be an illusion doesn't mean it is.

Randomness is untestable. Many things we consider random are actually being affected by an infinite number of variables. So the path of a galaxy can be logical but unpredictable, just as it would be if it was truly random. This is why randomness is untestable.

Just because something could be the opposite of what it seems doesn't mean it is.

I'm not talking opposites here. I'm reconciling a contrived duality - order and chaos - with fractals.




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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #891559 - 09/18/02 06:06 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got your definitions all bungled up.

Instead of the word "chaos", try using "randomness"... chaos theory has marred the true meaning of chaos.

As for the fractals... they ARE NOT the border between randomness and order. They are order. Don't misunderstand this. This is not a contrived duality. This is one of those situations that IS black and white only. No gray area exists. Though many try to claim that fractals are the gray area... they have an equation = they have order. Just because it's really complex and the human mind can be tricked into thinking some fractals are random (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I've never been tricked), it doesn't follow that fractals can mend the gap between order and randomness.

Like the determinism vs. free will battle, this duality stays. Sorry.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #891888 - 09/18/02 08:45 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Ummmm.... maybe you misunderstood.

I never said fractals are random.

earlier I said:
"I didn't say fractals are random. They obviously are not"
and
"All these things give the illusion of randomness but underlying it all is a simple elegent equation"

I used "chaos" instead of "randomness" because of their different meaning, not because I got them confused.

they have an equation = they have order

My point exactly. As I've said "if you input the same equation, you'll get the same result every time"

Fractals don't bridge order and randomness, but it can explain seemingly random events such as the weather, or the path of a particle etc. They all follow equations.

Let me ask you this: what is the difference between "true" randomness and apparent randomness? A particle in motion might appear to have random motions but it is actually being affected by an infinite number of variables. Every particle in the universe exerts a force on that one particle, so even if its motion is ordered, its motion can never be predicted and its precise position can never be known. For all intents and purposes, the behaviour of the particle is random, even if it is being controlled by mathematical equations. It would require an infinitely powerful computer to simulate the motion of the particle. What is randomness but the inability to predict?



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OfflineNomad
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Re: reality theory [Re: buttonion]
    #892389 - 09/19/02 02:00 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Totally agree. Check out the tail end of Mr. Mushroom's "Truth?" thread, although it may require a little back-reading to catch up.

Thanks! The length of that thread scares the hell out of me, but I'll give it a try. Menawhile, I'm enjoying my ignorance by replying to the tail end without having a clue what the discussion was all about...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #892415 - 09/19/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

You don't understand fractals. They don't only produce "repetitive results", they can produce unpredictable results. The uncertainty principle fits perfectly with fractals and chaos theory.

Because we are unable to predict the form a fractal will make does not mean it is related in any way to the uncertainty principle (as in quantuum physics). A specific formula will ALWAYS give the same picture.

The uncertainty principle says that the exact same set of circumstances may give DIFFERENT results, such as in radioactive decay.

Please note the difference.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: reality theory [Re: Swami]
    #892422 - 09/19/02 02:41 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

As I've said "if you input the same equation, you'll get the same result every time"

The uncertainty principle says that the exact same set of circumstances may give DIFFERENT results, such as in radioactive decay.

But you can never recreate EXACTLY the same set of circumstances. If you could, who's to say that things won't repeat exactly?

The rate of radioactive decay can't be precisely predicted because there are an infinite number of variables, which obviously can't be reproduced. The same goes for the behavior of subatomic particles or the orbit of celestial objects or the weather.
The "uncertainty" in the uncertainty principle isn't an inherent property of the thing being measured. It's a property of the the act of measuring.







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Anonymous

Re: reality theory [Re: infidelGOD]
    #892580 - 09/19/02 06:30 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Good dialogue from both of you.

My Quantum broke down. Anybody know a good mechanic?

Cheers,


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #905726 - 09/24/02 11:55 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

theoretically couldn't you create a program that emulates our universe, if the computer was powerfull enough, using ones and zeros.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #906235 - 09/25/02 02:54 AM (19 years, 2 days ago)

theoretically couldn't you create a program that emulates our universe

That's what some say.
I disagree.

I say randomness exists... and if a computer cannot truly be random (complex algorithms are NOT random), then it cannot truly model our universe.

Besides, a theory needs evidence... otherwise it's just speculation.
NO, there is no real evidence that such a program is possible.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #906436 - 09/25/02 04:37 AM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Two things exist: Chaos and Order.
They exist simultaneously.
That is all.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: Shroomism]
    #907065 - 09/25/02 01:07 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

I would agree with that...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: reality theory [Re: Shroomism]
    #907089 - 09/25/02 01:26 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

In reply to:

Two things exist: Chaos and Order.
They exist simultaneously.
That is all.





How much of there is each?

I'm of the opinion that there are more parts order than chaos.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #907092 - 09/25/02 01:29 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

How much of there is each?

There really is no way to know.


I'm of the opinion that there are more parts order than chaos.

Do you base this on your experiences with the puny rock called Earth?


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Offlinepattern
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #907108 - 09/25/02 01:40 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

>>How much of there is each?
>
> There really is no way to know.

How do you know that?

> Do you base this on your experiences with the puny rock called Earth?

Yes!




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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #907118 - 09/25/02 01:46 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

How do you know that?

DUH! The Invisible Hopping Salamanders informed me of this truth....
Actually, it's because it would be impossible to measure the state of the universe... unless you're that "God" thing.

Do you base this on your experiences with the puny rock called Earth?

Yes!


Fair enough.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #907245 - 09/25/02 02:40 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

> Actually, it's because it would be impossible to measure the state of the universe... unless you're that "God" thing.


ya lost me


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Offlinepattern
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #907266 - 09/25/02 02:51 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

> theoretically couldn't you create a program
> that emulates our universe, if the
> computer was powerfull enough, using ones and zeros

the computer would be bigger than the universe: it would be holding a complete representation of the universe inside it.

in other words: no.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #907558 - 09/25/02 05:08 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

theoretically couldn't you create a program that emulates our universe?

"it would be holding a complete representation of the universe inside it.

in other words: no."

what do you mean no. you just said yes in saying it would be a complete representation of the universe.
the computer would emulate a universe where computers exist in it that emulate a universe where computers exist in it that emulate the universe etc....
thats just one way of looking at it. whos to say that if you created a program with the laws of physics in a space with infinite energy that after 100000000000000 years of the program running a universe would unfold with matter and things that are familiar to us now like sound, light, etc.. differernt representations of energy. hte program wouldn't necessarily emulate our universe but unfold a different one.

also i dont believe in chaos. chaos is a term used to explain not understanding the reasons for something happening. when something happens it was caused by something else and so on into infinite complexity untill there are so many forces at work that it seems chaotic. just cause we as humans dont understand everything doesn't mean chaos exists.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #907797 - 09/25/02 07:17 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

> what do you mean no. you just said yes

i said no.  why?  i dont think such a computer is possible. 

if you do, go build one.  build a time machine too while you are at it.  :tongue:


> chaos is a term used to explain not understanding the reasons for something happening

chaos is used to describe accumulating effects of randomness. 

perhaps, since you dont understanding chaos, you assume it is order.

>  just cause we as humans dont understand everything doesn't mean chaos exists.

so, you understand everything, and know that chaos doesnt exist? lol


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: pattern]
    #908088 - 09/25/02 09:31 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

" i dont think such a computer is possible."
thats not what i was asking. it is possible to design a program but to get a computer strong enough to run it is another thing. thats why is said theoretically and its not implausible, just limited by computer technology that by the way is increasing greatly everyday.

if chaos exists then prove it.
I'm not saying i know everything but i am saying that chaos sounds alot like a religion deriving gods to explain something you cant comprehend.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

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Offlinepattern
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #908726 - 09/26/02 01:44 AM (19 years, 1 day ago)

we could argue forever ad nausem.  :frown:

instead i have a post u might like to read.  :smile:

the pattern in reality



 


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #908941 - 09/26/02 02:54 AM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Order and Chaos = Matter and anti-matter.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: Shroomism]
    #909243 - 09/26/02 07:27 AM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Order and Chaos = Matter and anti-matter.

What the hell?
Put the spliff down, chief. That makes no sense whatsoever...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: reality theory [Re: Shroomism]
    #909573 - 09/26/02 01:12 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Without order nothing can exist...
Without chaos nothing can evolve.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: Adamist]
    #909603 - 09/26/02 01:20 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Without order nothing can exist...
Without chaos nothing can evolve.


Gawd... that is such a great line. Mad props.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: reality theory [Re: Adamist]
    #909877 - 09/26/02 03:11 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

well put


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
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Re: reality theory [Re: Adamist]
    #913520 - 09/27/02 11:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

there is always some kind of order to chaos.
evolution doesn't occur randomly. things cause it. survival of the fittest. its not random chaos.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #914665 - 09/28/02 01:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Says you...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #915667 - 09/28/02 09:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

obviously. whats your point?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #916318 - 09/29/02 05:24 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Is it necessary that so many unknowns be "beyond our reach"?

Ever since the Buddhists hit on that whole "illusions of reality" gimmick... everyone and their new age brother have been using it as a nice little bullshit counter. It's kind of like Christianity's "God works in mysterious ways". Maybe there are some illusions in reality... I won't deny that. But I can't accept a blanket statement such as "everything is illusion... we are all one consciousness... (thanks Mr. Hicks)". Seeing reality as an illusion makes life less meaningful... a different means to the same end provided by a belief in an afterlife.

I'd rather be ignorant to such a truth than have any meaningfulness taken away.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #920878 - 09/30/02 07:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

the phrase "what is the meaning of life" is stupid.
that is insinuating that someone or some being created it and gave it meaning. so if we wanted to know the meaning of life all we have to do is ask our mom or dad what they intended us for. If this doesn't appeal to you then ask your supposed god. i would be surprised if you got an answer (since there is no god). "the meaning of life" is irrelevant. life is what and how you live it not some predisposed purpose or meaning. this whole phrase comes from religious idiots who dont think they need to think for themselves, that god will tell them everything they need to know and after spending there whole lives wasted, they realize what is the meaning and they cant answer it because they cant think for themselves or give it meaning, expecting it to be handed to them on a holy stone tablet or in the spoken word of god in a book or divine intervention.

i dunno.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #929936 - 10/04/02 12:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Seeing reality as an illusion makes life less meaningful"

How does this theory portray reality as an illusion?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #932253 - 10/04/02 04:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How does this theory portray reality as an illusion?

Remember this?:
when something happens it was caused by something else and so on into infinite complexity untill there are so many forces at work that it seems chaotic.

The underlined word "seems" suggests illusion. This is a prime example of how words can be tricky.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #932262 - 10/04/02 04:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

im not saying reality is the illusion. chaos is the illusion.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #932286 - 10/04/02 04:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

im not saying reality is the illusion. chaos is the illusion.

If all we have is our perceptions... and chaos is what we percieve, then how isn't that major chunk of our reality an illusion?


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #932296 - 10/04/02 04:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"then how isn't that major chunk of our reality an illusion"

That is the flaw in your arguement. "our reality" isn't reality. if we didn't exist reality still would.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #932313 - 10/04/02 05:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ah.... I think I've figured out the root now.

Sorry, I won't budge on free will. A purely cause-and-effect universe would not leave the door open to true freedom of the will. If we throw a little randomness into the pot, then we are allowed to have something called adaptability. When adaptability is applied to consciousness... one of the things we get is free will. I'm sorry, I won't accept the compatibilist's argument (it is garbage).

Again,
No Free Will = No Hope
I can't live with that.

If you want to argue this fundamental... go ahead, just know I won't be budging.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #932327 - 10/04/02 05:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

how is free will chaos? you choose what you do and think. its not random.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #932343 - 10/04/02 05:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Did you READ my post?

Free will is NOT chaos (randomness). However, the two are linked. Free will is a tool that helps a being adapts to chaos.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: reality theory [Re: Sclorch]
    #932357 - 10/04/02 05:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

but that post isnt even compatible because i said i dont believe in chaos. free will is tool that helps us adapt to complexity.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #932514 - 10/04/02 06:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If complexity were true, there would be no such thing as free will (don't forget that I won't accept the compatibilist argument).

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the various theories on this before you get back with me (not trying to offend, it's just that our discussions would be more productive).


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OfflineCalen
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Re: reality theory [Re: 1stimer]
    #935459 - 10/05/02 11:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

1stimer said:
the human brain isn't the only thing in the universe that

has on off switches.



Floooowww..

look at light waves and sound waves. ups and downs.

everything is basically a vibration which is an up and a

down.


....the whole process behind implication and explication of: flux. 

when you take a step there is pressure put on the earth

and the earth pushes back with the same opposite force. im



That's called equilibrium.

not saying that the universe is a computer program

playing on somones computer (although a case could be made

that we live in a synthetic universe).


*Synchronized* universe.

constant duality, black and white, 1s and 0s, etc... to

everything in the universe


The constant is impermanency, non-static.  There are cazillions of colors we haven't even seen yet with the nake eye! Mathematics uses exclusively the numbers of 0 to 9. 


Dualness is about the observables based on the tech we have.
A "neuron, the basic functional unit of your mind. Watch it, it either fires or it doesn't fire" doesn't mean its still not 'firing', just cannot be discern anymore due to the limitations of our observational 'equipment'.

theoretically couldn't you create a program that emulates

our universe, if the computer was powerfull enough, using

ones and zeros.


You are referrng to the quantum computer.  Not sure on the possibility of emulation. Except, it's not in binary but quaternary.


the fundamental unit of information (called a quantum

bit or qubit), is not binary but rather more quaternary in

nature.  This qubit property arises as a direct consequence

of its adherence to the laws of quantum mechanics which

differ radically from the laws of classical physics.  A

qubit can exist not only in a state corresponding to the

logical state 0 or 1 as in a classical bit, but also in

states corresponding to a blend or superposition of these

classical states.  In other words, a qubit can exist as a

zero, a one, or simultaneously as both 0 and 1


Quantum computing is in the pioneering stage.  When such

becomes a reality in real-time, your 1 and 0 theory will be

a fairy tale. :wink:  Encryption could go poof.  When

triple-qubit AI and AL propogates from the quantum "mother"

computer, we'll become 'extinct'. :wink:

but that post isnt even compatible because i said i dont believe in chaos. free will is tool that helps us adapt to complexity.

the sense of free-will is in the contextual experience but not in the design. The tool you termeed is a misnomer. Self-awareness, a strata above *governed* free-will, is more suitable one. 

Agreeably but not fully, I am with Sclorch based on the *theory* I have been disseminating for 1/3 of the year. The ramification of a causal reality applies to human architecture at *some* certainty is relevant to:  The moment you're born (cause), you're provided with a design to act, talk and move a certain way (effect) - unique from everybody else.

On adapting to complexity: The design you're born with has sources that *already* has latent qualities; potentially can be cultivated; provided there are eventual opportunities to gravitate.  the situations in life are triggers for a human to tap into his/her own *undiscovered* empowerments - and raising one's own nature to the highest level of freedom. 
Some are not even fully aware they are doing it, but some are. 

The premise here is you had no say from the moment you're born.  True Free-will would mean you could, literally, pre-engineer yourself before birth.  Unless you dabble into Past lives regression, that's an entire different subject.  True free-will would also mean unrestricted mutability by  re-engineering a new archetype after birth if you found uh your current running 'design' unsuitable. hehe 

Anyone who can do both is a *god*. :wink:


edit: wack forum messing up.. ung

 


Edited by Calen (10/06/02 12:53 AM)


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