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A Theory About a Certain Prophecy
    #3793151 -

For my point to be made clearly, and for discussion of this subject to have any meaning, it is vital that readers suspend their judgements of the rather far-fetched ideas I'm about to put forward. This post addresses issues regarding the nature of reality, and predictions about what may occur in the future. There will be a comparison between advances in modern physics, specifically quantum theory, and the philosophies which came out of the East during the times of Buddha and Lao Tzu. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to limit my references to Eastern thought to Buddhism, the subject of which I am most familiar.

Quantum mechanics and Eastern philosophy share a common worldview: that the events we experience, and indeed our entire scope of reality, depends on two things: a series of probabilities, and the presence of an observer. Quantum mechanics tells us that no single event is certain to occur, that things occur because they have the most potential to occur. In addition to this, quantum mechanics says that the presence of an observer always influences the transpiration of any event witnessed. In his teachings on emptiness, Buddha shared a similar view. He said in Bukko Dendo Kyokai (A Japanese text translated to English) "all things are empty; experiences occur in accordance with our karma." Karma is later clarified as being the potential that exists within the mind for an observer to experience a certain event or situation. In summary, both Buddha and quantum physicists agree that no outcome is a certainty, that all things which undergo the formality of actually occuring are subjected to and compelled by the influence of an apprehending conciousness.

From this basis, we can suppose that the world we inhabit and all it's features are the product of our collective karma, that is to say, the collective influence of a series of densely packed conciousnesses, animals included. From this, it follows that the cultural situation present in the world today, and by this I mean the climate of suspicion and aggression prevalent around the globe today, is also a product of our collective mental influence. In essence, it is the unrest of our own minds which has granted solid appearance to a deteriorating global situation. Stated simply, each of us shares the experience of cultural and political destablization because each of us has the karma, or the mental atmosphere, necessary to sustain those appearances.

It's the fact that we each experience our reality in basically the same way that gives us the impression it's something occuring objectively, that it has it's own static, singular nature. What if this were not true? Furthermore, what if the collective karma or mental atmosphere of certain people was no longer conducive to the experiences others are having? What would happen to them?

Now, conditions in the world are deteriorating at such a rate that more and more people are beginning to suspect a looming catastrophe of apocalyptic proportions. Some suppose that the approach of the end of the Mayan calendar will mark the beginning of a global catstrophe of such enormity that it has never been conceived of before. Some suppose that the prophecies of St. Paul will come to pass, that there will be bloodshed and fire and so forth. There's a certain prophecy I want to focus on, though, and that's the one in the Book of Revelations detailing a most bizarre phenomenon: the rapture.

An apocalypse is a significant bit of adversity indeed. What if it were true that some of the people existing in the world right now, perphaps numbering in the millions, simply don't have the necessary potential with their own minds to experience the horror of an apocalypse? In essence, their minds are no longer compatible with the events transpiring in the world they and the rest of us helped create. They do not mix. Would such people simply vanish into thin air? And if so, where would they go?

I would like to suggest that the enormous, apocalyptic, "inconceivable" event predicted by so many ancient cultures and ancient prophets is the birth of a new universe, inhabited and indeed spurred into existence by all the people who's mental continuum could no longer sustain the experience of the dreadful affairs going on in this, the ordinary world. In essence, the state of affairs on this earth reach such dire proportions that for the first time in history human beings witness directly a phenomenon that until this point has remained hidden: the branching off of one reality into another, like one cell dividing and becoming two distinct cells.

On both sides of these two realities, earth-populating beings would experience the split as a sudden, unexplained disappearance of millions of people. Indeed, such an event would resemble the rapture spoken of in the final book of the Bible.

Thoughts on this idea?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3793191 -

From this basis, we can suppose that the world we inhabit and all it's features are the product of our collective karma
And what of the initial conditions of life when there was no karma? What were they the product of?

Now, conditions in the world are deteriorating at such a rate...
What conditions? The average westerner has more wealth and luxury in practical ways than the richest man in the world of 200 years ago. As our population is still booming, "conditions" (whatever this vagueness refers to) must still be improving else the planet would not support this rate of growth.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3793203 -

Im still a little sore on how it would actually occur. How human influence can change reality in a way that would cause millions of people to disappear. But I often wonder. If im getting what your saying correctly, our waking reality is no more than a control, but when we are asleep, or the when the mind plays out its subconciuos motives, that we are really seeing the condition of the world.

For me i find this to be very close to home... in such a way that, every time when i go to sleep. My dreams have always been a deteriorating world... land that in waking life is in tact, is destroyed, defiled, covered in water... A world filled with rampaging individuals.

Now for whether or not we somehow push the same agenda, subconciously, maybe we will be pushing for a rapture, or a scorch of the sky. Its an interesting thought.

Im just having trouble linking the properties of physics, the play of karma, and how this ties into our subconcious world, and how we do or do not influenec our reality...

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3793230 -

Christians of differant sects still debate today over whether the rapture will happen. I think it won't, but I am not versed in the part of the scripture that says that the rapture will happen. Surely, I must have passed over whatever verse that the rapture is based on.

Could someone tell me in what part of Revelations the rapture will happen in?


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3793872 -

On both sides of these two realities, earth-populating beings would experience the split as a sudden, unexplained disappearance of millions of people. Indeed, such an event would resemble the rapture spoken of in the final book of the Bible.

Well this is the only part I really want to comment on. Theories such as the Multiverse theory DO allow for multiple "timelines" to exist, with each timeline belonging to a specific quantum state for the Universe. However when two lines "branch off" from eachother, NOTHING passes from one "universe" to the other. That would violate the Laws of Thermodynamics (a closed system can neither gain nor lose energy). It is more of a "copy" operation, so I would think that in such an event EVERYONE who exists in "this" universe would STILL exist in this universe, yet another "new" universe would come into being where the new possibility is played out. This timeline will go on as it is, however.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: trendal]
    #3794081 -

If the universe is infinite, how can it be a closed system? Are there really closed systems in the real world? Furthermore, if a new universe came into being out of nothingness, wouldn't that 'closed system' gain an infinite amount of energy in just one small time frame?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3794202 -

I have a hard time seeing people actually disappear. I do not know much about anything, so my experience with this kind of stuff is very minimal.

My interpretation of the bible is more of a set of standards, and fable like stories. I believe in there being more to life, before birth, after death, and while alive.

I just cannot see people physically disappearing, maybe thier souls leave their bodies for a better place, resulting in death...

I am not a Christian, but I believe the book of the bible to be a great read. I really would like to see everyone's take on this, because whether its black and white, or creative symbolism, I want to know what they meant by the rapture.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: tak]
    #3794351 -

Im reading a really great book right now about the agreement of Quantum physics and buddhism. It is called "The Quantum and the Lotus". There is also another one out there called "the quark and the jaguar". Check them out if you are interested.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3794357 -

If the universe is infinite

That is a very big "if".

I do not think that this Universe is infinite in either size or duration.

Furthermore, if a new universe came into being out of nothingness, wouldn't that 'closed system' gain an infinite amount of energy in just one small time frame?

I think it would gain a "starter" ammount of energy from the Multiverse as it comes into existence. Think of EACH universe in the multiverse as a closed-system within a larger system. Information/energy cannot be transfered between universes (as they are closed systems from the moment they begin until the moment they end) however there is a VAST (infinite?) ammount of energy available in the Multiverse itself.

Just thoughts, though :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: trendal]
    #3797338 -

Interesting thoughts; I don't have anything to add at the moment, but I must note that this shouldn't be on page two. :grin:

*Bump*

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3797598 -

>> And what of the initial conditions of life when there was no karma? What were they the product of?

This question is difficult to address because I must confine myself to speculation.

Certain experiences have lent me the idea that it's conciousness which spurs the development of complex systems, that it's conciousness which propelled the evolution of plants and animals, and finally the human brain, so that this all-pervasive "cosmic" conciousnesss might actualize itself in the form of living beings. During life's initial stages, a rudamentary form of conciousness was and still is expressed in the available complexity of things, operating on the same principles I laid out earlier.


>> What conditions? The average westerner has more wealth and luxury in practical ways than the richest man in the world of 200 years ago.

As conditions improve for a small few, however, conditions necessarily worsen for the majority. The opulence afforded to us as benefit of human endeavour has been condensed into the hands of a small fraction of the population. This, I believe, is symptomatic of the deteriorating conditions of our cultural landscape.


>> As our population is still booming, "conditions" (whatever this vagueness refers to) must still be improving else the planet would not support this rate of growth.

The planet will not continue to support this rate of growth. At the present moment, human beings are generating twice as much carbon dioxide as the biosphere is able to reabsorb (Suzuki). There is much evidence to support the fact that the human population is putting the earth under greater stress than it can endure.

I don't think it can be doubted that on the whole, cultural and geological conditions on this planet are worsening. We can draw from any number of examples, from the enormous controversy surrounding the US-led occupation of Iraq, growing tension between Iran, Syria, and Israel, growing tension surrounding North Korea, and so on. There is also the matter of greenhouse gasses and the deteriorating atmosphere, the overwhelming lack of safe drinking water for huge populations, the increasing state of poverty gripping a growing majority of the earth's inhabitants, and so on and so forth.



>> However when two lines "branch off" from eachother, NOTHING passes from one "universe" to the other. That would violate the Laws of Thermodynamics (a closed system can neither gain nor lose energy).

Complexity in closed systems necessarily decreases with time. Since the complexity of our universe has been increasing at an accelerating rate, it stands to reason that the universe we are relating to is involved in a relationship with phenomena we are not presently able to detect. This suggests that the universe is in fact an open system, like a cell in a body. Distinct, but involved in constant exchange with an integrated whole.

Stated simply, the universe must not be a closed system because it is undergoing a process of evolution. Increasing diversity is not a characteristic of closed systems. It should also be mentioned that there are no truly closed systems in the known universe. They do not exist because they cannot exist; it is impossible to completely segerate a system from the energetic influences of it's surroundings. And, secondly, the more we isolate a system from it's surroundings, the more rapidly it degenerates. Since the universe is functioning quite smoothly, and since it is certainly not degenerating, why should we suppose that the universe itself is a closed system?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3797647 -

"Closed" Systems are an illusion. All knowledge of boundaries is provisional.


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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3797829 -

Complexity in closed systems necessarily decreases with time. Since the complexity of our universe has been increasing at an accelerating rate, it stands to reason that the universe we are relating to is involved in a relationship with phenomena we are not presently able to detect.

Are you so sure that the complexity of the WHOLE universe is increasing? Entropy is increasing, yes, but entropy is in many ways the opposite of complexity.

Now, you can point to stars, planets, animals, or humans and say "look! complex organized systems!" but you are ONLY LOOKING AT A LOCALIZED PART OF THE UNIVERSE! On the whole, the Universe is progressing towards greater and greater SIMPLICITY, not complexity. We humans exist as HIGHLY complex systems, but for us to exist there HAS to be an increase in entropy over the entire universe. That increase is greater than the increase in complexity gained by creating a human being...so while the Earth continues to produce complex systems it does so at the cost of increasing entropy on the whole.

Don't forget to take gravity into account, too :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3797865 -

Since the universe is functioning quite smoothly, and since it is certainly not degenerating, why should we suppose that the universe itself is a closed system?

As for this, you have to realize that the universe is MASSIVELY huge in size. Beyond human comprehension huge. I don't see how you can say that the universe is "certainly not degenerating" when the timespan that you have been here to WITNESS the universe is so INCREDIBLY small when compared to the lifetime of the universe. Of course the universe is functioning "smoothly", as the current functioning is the ONLY way the universe CAN function. That functioning is limited by the laws of physics, which as far as we know have not changed since just after the creation. To say that the universe operates "smoothly" does not mean it is not increasing its entropy all the time (which it is), and increasing entropy = decreasing complexity.


Now, an idea I had once about the relationship between compexity/entropy touches on this. I think it IS rather interesting that while the entropy of the whole universe is rising, complexity on LOCAL scales is also rising.

Where will this lead? How far can the complexity progress?

I think that localized complexity will continue to progress, probably until this universe ends. Oh, and we humans are far from the most complex things possible. In the grand scheme of things, the human race will be only a blink of an eye. We will die off.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3797892 -

>> As our population is still booming, "conditions" (whatever this vagueness refers to) must still be improving else the planet would not support this rate of growth.

The planet will not continue to support this rate of growth.
So now you have shifted from conditions are worsening, to conditions WILL BE worsening. Try to stay with current reality.

I don't think it can be doubted...
I have covered this sort of weak a priori "argument" or pre-emptive strike several times. It has no purpose in philosophical debate and makes you sound like a politician. I, for one, find plenty of room to doubt your contention.

that on the whole, cultural and geological conditions on this planet are worsening.

We can draw from any number of examples, from the enormous controversy surrounding the US-led occupation of Iraq, growing tension between Iran, Syria, and Israel, growing tension surrounding North Korea, and so on.
So things were better when there was wholesale slaughter by the Huns, slavery in Egypt and Rome and widespread plague in Europe? Your case is not convincing.

There is also the matter of greenhouse gasses and the deteriorating atmosphere,
Things were better when many more volcanoes were active and the atmosphere was filled with ammonia and methane?

Your post sounds more emotion-based than factual.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3798492 -

Hmm, it seems someone has come from a different dimension already. Proceed, but be cautioned that the following link is extremely random.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Swami]
    #3798591 -

>> Your post sounds more emotion-based than factual.

That was the intention.  For entertainment purposes only. :smile:


>> So things were better when there was wholesale slaughter by the Huns, slavery in Egypt and Rome and widespread plague in Europe?

These are historical expressions of the same cultural problem I've been referring to.  It is worsening in that now it is a cultural problem with global implications.


>> Things were better when many more volcanoes were active and the atmosphere was filled with ammonia and methane?

Subjectively speaking, that is to say, from the human standpoint, that era was part of a progressive phase in the planet's history, a necessary series of changes occuring prior to life-sustaining conditions on earth.  Now, human beings are destroying those life-sustaining conditions.  Keeping with the human-centred perspective, the changes occuring on the earth today are not part of a progressive phase; they are part of a destructive phase. 

Objectively speaking, however, the changes occuring on this earth are not different from those that occured as the continents drifted apart.  That of course cannot be argued.  The initiative of this thread, however, was to discuss subjective matters, and not objective ones.



>> while the Earth continues to produce complex systems it does so at the cost of increasing entropy on the whole.

The universe is increasing in complexity inasmuch as it is able to sustain complex systems.  The universe is as complex as it's most complex expressive form.  If a form-expression of the universe were more complex than the universe, it would not exist as part of that universe.  Since complexity has been increasing since the beginning of the known universe, with it's most advanced known expression found in the form of the human brain, it follows that the universe on the whole has been increasing in complexity in direct proportion.  That systems elsewhere are prone to degeneration does not undermine this; it is the arising and cessation of systems that is the vehicle for evolution.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: Ped]
    #3800380 -

that is a very interesting theory.

could the same mechanism explain the apparent cohesiveness and persistence of reality?

you say that this split would happen because:
"their minds are no longer compatible with the events transpiring in the world"

I would think that the thought of millions of people just vanishing into thin air would be just as inconceivable as the apocolypse. maybe the same mechanism that can split reality can also keep it together. they are prevented from leaving because their disappearance into another reality is incompatible with THIS reality.

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3800480 -

I think the quantum physics = eastern mysticism is pretty much right, but I also think that predictions of ancient cultures only have projective value (that is, we can read whatever we want to project onto them).

Also, you should know that recently, Shahriar Afshar did an experiment that weakened the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is the main contender in qunatum physics that also postulates more than one universe.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

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Re: A Theory About a Certain Prophecy [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3801812 -

infidelGOD said:
I would think that the thought of millions of people just vanishing into thin air would be just as inconceivable as the apocolypse. maybe the same mechanism that can split reality can also keep it together. they are prevented from leaving because their disappearance into another reality is incompatible with THIS reality.


I wouldn't think of it in terms of groups of people simply disappearing from a certain reality. I think it would be more along the lines of certain people entering into a different experience of reality - the other reality would still play itself out as it was going to, but the consciousness experiencing that reality through the perspective of that person would shift into experiencing a different reality.... or something. :grin:

*shrugs*

Do electrons exist simultaneously in every possible location, only appearing to us in the location they are found in by the probability that they will be there? I'm asking because I want to know. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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