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InvisibletrendalM
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Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction
    #2063713 - 11/01/03 10:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

These are some very high thoughts I've had, let out of their cage for your amusement :smirk:

The second law of thermodynamics states that Entropy is increasing, constantly and irreversibly, in a closed system. That is, the level of "disorder" in a system is increasing.

We see in chaos theory that disorder breeds order. Fractals emerge from randomness and chaos. The higher the level of chaos (entropy), the higher the level of order produced.

The order that is produced in this method is not of the same type of "order" that is being broken down into chaos, it is of a more abstracted form. A "higher" level of order, I guess.

So as the entropy of the universe increases, a "higher" abstracted form of order should be produced. Life as an inevitability in the universe :smirk:

I thought: how does this abstracted order increase? Does it increase steadily, without jumps or singularities? Or are there periods of increased evolution of Order?

The first order of abstraction is the universe itself, in physical form. This is where the commonly held concept of entropy exists, and where it is increasing. The disorder of this base level is always increasing. From this increasing entropy comes a new abstracted layer of order. In this layer, entropy is always decreasing.

Are there more than two layers of abstraction? Or do they co-exist and interact harmoniously: as one increases in entropy the other decreases and vice-versa.

Intuitively I feel that the abstracted layers of order would NOT increase steadily. There would be times where the order increases at a much faster rate than others. This would cascade throughout the other possible layers, complete fractal-style.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2063718 - 11/01/03 10:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There ARE other layers of abstraction!

My original thought was of layers on top of each other.

Not the case.

All the levels of abstraction are contained within eacother. Holographic principles at work here.

The universe in base physical form can still be taken as the base level of abstraction, the "zoomed out" view. The physical structure of the universe is the next level of abstraction. Next comes complex chemistry (organic chem). Life is the next level: the macroscopic DNA molecule, perhaps a macroscopic quantum system.

Higher orders of life are next, progressing towards conscious intelligence.

What, then, is the next level of abstraction?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2063724 - 11/01/03 10:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

As the entropy of each layer of abstraction decreases, it does so faster than the entropy increases in the next level down the chain. The entropy for conscious intelligence decreases faster than the entropy for higher-order life increases.

This would result in the entropy of each successive abstracted level reacing ZERO before total entropy is reached in the previous level.

What happens then?

The next abstraction is "born". This could be thought of as the negetive entropy state of the preceeding level of abstraction.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2063726 - 11/01/03 10:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

entertaining 2012 are we?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: David_Scape]
    #2063729 - 11/01/03 10:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No, I'm not an entertainer :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,376
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2063732 - 11/01/03 10:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

2012 has/had nothing to do with this thought experiment.

Though I see how it could be fit into the picture. I don't care to do that, but if anyone else does be my guess.

Actually I guess the CONCEPT of 2012 could be relative here, but the specific date is meaningless to my idea.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2063824 - 11/01/03 11:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

As reluctant as I am to actually apply theory to the real world... :smirk:

Social Disorder could be the Entropy of the Societal-Conscious layer. Then as social disorder increases a new level of order would become apparent.

But I can't back that up with papers or anything :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2064303 - 11/02/03 05:41 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The universe was a coffee cup (at zero entropy) and all there was, was the cup, now the cup is shattering, and we and everything are the pieces, and the motion of the pieces(time?) (increasing entropy) But there is still only the coffee cup. Or The cup and the shattering of the cup both always were, are right now, and always will be, and entropy is just our increasing awareness (the continueing of the collapsing of wavefunctions)(time?) of the "is"ness of it all.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2065561 - 11/02/03 06:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Picture the Universe as a linked-list of Abstracted Order :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2069069 - 11/04/03 12:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I have no idea what a linked-list of Abstaracted order is....but i'll try... i'll think of it as a koan or something :wink:
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2069543 - 11/04/03 07:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> i'll think of it as a koan or something

hehe... where is the reference of a null pointer pointing.  :grin:

> The second law of thermodynamics states that Entropy is increasing, constantly and irreversibly, in a closed system.

I could see this in an open system, but in a closed system as well?  In a closed system, is a point not reached where entropy can no longer increase?  If I drop a drop of food color into a glass of water, can it diffuse forever, or does it reach a steady state after a while?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: Seuss]
    #2069752 - 11/04/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No, it does reach a state of total entropy at some point.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinepsychopsilocyber
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2070350 - 11/04/03 06:58 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Is it me? Or are you stuck in a duality thought loop?


--------------------
Eco friendly extraction is the only way to go for Dmt, mescaline, and iboga


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2070394 - 11/04/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

wow, today in class we covered this exact topic. The professor said that entropy is always increasing, I challenged him by saying "Look at the trees, look at the human brain, why are these things getting more complex as they grow." He said that these things are not closed systems, so for example, a tree needs sunlight to grow. He also said that certain things may become more structured like our brains, but the universe in general is becoming more disorganized. I'm still confused, if this is a Law, why does it apply in certain areas and not others? Why is our universe increasing in randomness but not life forms on earth, or when stars and galaxies are being formed  :confused: 


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: chodamunky]
    #2070417 - 11/04/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well the system being closed or open makes all the difference.

We may be highly complex systems on our own...but with every breath we take and every moment we live we are increasing the total entropy of the universe.

The Law does apply to all areas, but entropy is only guaranteed to increase in a closed system. If the system is not closed, entropy can be passed outside the system. In this way we remain, for a time, a complex system seemingly in defiance of the increase of entropy. We pass the entropy we create off to the environment around us, thus increasing the total entropy of the Universe.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #2070963 - 11/04/03 09:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

under string theory....or more precisely, M theory, there is no such thing as a closed system, because we are affected by the gravitons being fed to our universe from other universes (membranes).


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: automan]
    #2071336 - 11/04/03 11:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

How does that effect the entropy situation? Does entropy still always increase?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #23619737 - 09/06/16 10:56 PM (2 months, 27 days ago)

So if I post in this post...does the Entropy increase or decrease...This post has just been sitting here for about 12 years..and so I want to post to show what entropy is..

Am I making more chaos..or order..by doing this? The Question is can this be said to have decayed at all? For our honest knowledge says that this continuation proves...a zero point entropy..


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: trendal]
    #23620260 - 09/07/16 12:58 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Sounds like you're thinking of negative entropy.

I like to think of entropy like a star dying and negative entropy as a sun forming.


--------------------
"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." - Richard Dawkins


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Invisibleegoproctor
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Re: Entropy, (dis)Order, and Abstraction [Re: sudly]
    #23622453 - 09/07/16 05:46 PM (2 months, 26 days ago)

Looking at the history of the theory entropy, it began only as the rate of heat dissipation in heated gasses, nothing else.  It was later once mathematicians began to play with concepts, not natural philosophers and physicists, that concepts of order and chaos crept in.  These added concpets have no actual bearing on reality.  The issues around entropy began because in many respects Newton was incomplete with his examination of physical processes.  Had the investigators of the properties of heated gasses looked toward Faraday and Maxwell for electromagnetic interactions and electrical effects and John Keely for sympathetic vibratory physics, they would not have seen randomness in the movement of the particles as they reached thermal equilibrium, but a different mechanism of particle interaction. 

Entropy, as described by Claude Shannon, is largely a mathematical fiction.  During the 20th century, after Irving Langmuir invented his probe (Langmuir probe) it became possible to easily detect the perturbations of excited gasses and determine their electromagnetic properties.  This gave rise to Plasma Physics, which is largely not taught even in Phd astrophysics, yet it is the most prevalent form of matter in the universe.  Since mainstream science has never really looked into the properties of plasma physics they are still in the dark about much of mechanisms of the universe, hence the continual flood of press releases of failed studies and surprising findings that the standard model theory failed to predict. The theory has degraded to the point that is should have been abandoned decades ago when Hannes Alfven proposed his new model of cosmology, but it has been ignored for pride and money and dogmatism.

Entropy, as order and chaos, is a mathematical mythology that has some, but limited actual occurrence in nature.  Instead of following prescribed empirical scientific protocols once Newton's theories began to reach their limits of usefulness, mathematicians began expanding the uses of statistics and probability.  What came next was a mostly useless sea of bad information collection from indeterminate noise due to a lack of understanding of the systems being examined.  This has led to entire branches of medical and scientific study that are based on faulty premises and scientific research that cannot be repeated or confirmed.

Through the lens of Plasma Physics the universe is an open system, not closed.  Energy dissipates from one area and moves to another and will eventually flow somewhere else, possibly back into the area where it was first measured.  Only in a laboratory setting using only limited Newtonian dynamics will anyone find a closed system. 

The Universe is made up of 99.999% Plasma, and that plasma is electromagnetically active.  The force of electromagnetics in the plasma can be as much as 10^39 times more powerful than any measured gravity.  Through plasma structures like Birkeland Currents that electromagnetic force can be carried millions of light years.  Using these calculations it is possible to account for the formation and rotation of the galaxies and practically every other celestial structure without introducing relativity, entropy, dark matter, black holes, or a big bang.  All of those features of the standard model theory of physics are adhoc inventive mathematical attempts to save the failing Newtonian mechanics. 

Newton had no causation for gravity, only guesses and adhoc attempts to patch up the short comings of his work.  In the decades and centuries that followed his establishment of physical theories, it was found that gravity is not constant and it has a different measurement in different areas of the earth.  Inertia is also not a constant, neither is the speed of light, and most other constants vary as measurements are repeated.  The dogmatic adherence to Newtonian dynamics has led to an increased level of confusion in physical theory.  Most of Quantum Mechanics is confusing mythology with no use in the physical world.  Particle physics is mostly irrelevant, and relativity was only a thought experiment with no correlation to reality as admitted by its creator Einstein. 

They are all beautiful and complex theories and the math seems to work, but it is not based on empirical science. It is deductive logic that used mathematics to create a vision of what the theoretician wants the universe to be like, not what it actually is. 

So, while your musings are interesting, they don't appear to have any actual use when compared to more recent observations of the cosmos and reality through the lens of a more sophisticated plasma physical view of what exists and can be empirically tested in laboratories and observed with the full compliment of technology invented to examine the skies.  Because of the complex politics of the modern academic and research paradigms it is almost impossible to present the established system with new ideas the have become so calcified and entrenched.  Instead of allowing science to correct itself, tenured professors and voracious skeptics will go out of their way to destroy the careers of even the most humble and well meaning scientist who has a well documented and defensible view.  It is a tragedy really, but one that hopefully continued pressure from the growing community of dissident thinkers will overcome in then next decade or so.

Quotes on science

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.  - Max Planck

New scientific ideas never spring from a communal body, however organized, but rather from the head of an individually inspired researcher who struggles with his problems in lonely thought and unites all his thought on one single point which is his whole world for the moment.”  - Max Plank

History shows clearly that the advances of science have always been frustrated by the tyrannical influences of certain preconceived notions which were turned into unassailable dogmas. For that reason alone, every serious scientist should periodically make a profound reexamination of his basic principles.
—Louis de Broglie New Perspectives in Physics Basic Books, New York, 1962

Some interestign documentaries about the state of science and its reporting to the public.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ouroboros3712/playlists





and some reading on the issues

http://milesmathis.com/ent.html

http://www.compilerpress.ca/Competitiveness/Anno/Anno%20Polanyi%20Scientific%20Beliefs%20Ethics%201950.htm

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/05/scientific-regress

http://philpapers.org/archive/HOLTDO-13.pdf


--------------------
"-" egoproctor


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