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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Order or Chaos?
    #2848511 - 07/01/04 09:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Imagine if you will a sequence of random numbers one million digits long.

Now, in this sequence of numbers, the subsequence '0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9' is bound to come up. Chaos can contain pockets of order. Chaos does not rule out some order.

Conversly, an ordered sequence of numbers would not be allowed to have any chaotic number subsequences in it; by definition, order cannot include chaos. Chaos can contain order, but order cannot contain chaos. For this reason, I believe that chaos is superior to order.

This is one of the reasons why I believe the totality of all things is fundamentally chaotic. Although one may find himself existing in a pocket of order, he cannot be sure that that pocket of order is anecdotal, the result of chance. His perspective from a position of order may blind him to the intrinsic chaos of the universe.

The universe does not make sense. Man tries in vain to make sense of the universe.

Although the events of space and time may happen in a logical fashion, the source of space and time is the potential of the infinite. I do not believe that this can be rationally understood. Thats why things are usually understood after the fact. There is no meaning to the things that happen in our universe. We simply assign meaning to these events post hoc.

anyway, I'm stoned and this is what I'm thinkin about. Flame on.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848528 - 07/01/04 09:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that order and chaos are two parts of the same whole - balance

I disagree with you on the point that chaos cannot come of order. However, when I am thinking of chaos and order, I am usually thinking about solar systems, galaxies, black holes, atoms.. things of that nature. The universe is like organized chaos in my eyes.

As above so below, or something to that effect

anyway I'm just stoned and streaming consciousness. Flame on!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848539 - 07/01/04 09:29 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm thinking about stellar evolution too.

specifically what exactly caused the density fluctuations in the initial hydrogen clouds which eventually collapsed to form the first massive stars?

If the universe were intrinsically ordered would not the hydrogen been lined up in neat little rows and columns? It took a random seed for gravity to do its work of turning a singularitry into a diverse universe.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848552 - 07/01/04 09:38 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I dunno, but I would wager that fluctuation was caused by the need to evolve.. which both order and chaos can play roles in.


If the universe were intrinsically ordered would not the hydrogen been lined up in neat little rows and columns? It took a random seed for gravity to do its work of turning a singularitry into a diverse universe.


I see your point and I agree. What I'm thinking is that somehow, order and chaos are a delicate balance, they are always counteracting each other.. I think that the same forces or intent behind that order or chaos responsible for the formation of galaxies is also active in every aspect of our lives.

Maybe there is method to the madness, and maybe we don't fully understand true "order". When I think of order I think of a tree.. not rules of society.

So I don't know where I'm going with any of this.. I think that chaos is the force which keeps order on it's toes, thus perpetuating evolution.. and likewise order attempts to assimilate chaos... and somehow in this process there is a perfect balance which in the end is ultimately geared towards expansion and evolution by some obscure or very obvious means.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848559 - 07/01/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I understand and completely agree with what you are saying.

however, if someone were to put a gun to my head and tell me that my life depended upon the correctness of my answer to the question of whether the universe is fundamentallt ordered or fundamentally chaotic, I would definitely say that chaos is more the underlying force of the universe than order. Order is like a slave to chaos. IMO


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848569 - 07/01/04 09:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Order is like a slave to chaos

hmm perhaps. Or it could be the other way around.. what a paradigm buster that would be!

I would probably say that chaos and order are dependent on one another. Why, I don't know. Because that's the way it is?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848572 - 07/01/04 09:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

semantically they are dependant but language and reality are two very different things


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848581 - 07/01/04 09:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

thank god for that


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848608 - 07/01/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848750 - 07/01/04 10:38 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Chaos can contain order, but order cannot contain chaos.  For this reason, I believe that chaos is superior to order.




Shitty cocaine can contain impurities, but does that means it's superior to cocaine with less impurities?  Nah, we only want the good stuff.  Order is chaos refined.

:smile:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2848785 - 07/01/04 10:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

if the structure of the universe were strictly ordered, cocaine probably wouldn't even exist at all. not to mention stars, planets, black holes, quasars, and all the other shit we haven't even seen yet.


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848812 - 07/01/04 10:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Strictly ordered universe?
I have no idea what would or would not exist in those circumstances. None of us do. There's no such thing as absolute order. There's definitely chaos, and there's less chaos.

I probably shouldn't imply that the more order the better. But too much of either isn't favorable in life. Maybe neither is superior?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2848822 - 07/01/04 11:03 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

chaos to me implies infinite potential. Order implies finite limitations. personally I would rather live in a universe that was fundamentally based in chaos than one that was fundamentally based in order... But I admit I may let these ideals skew my perception of reality.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848883 - 07/01/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Perfect chaos is so random as to be orderly.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848887 - 07/01/04 11:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

according to most of the cognitive and computer scientists I know, a perfectly chaotic number string would contain pockets of order which occured by chance, but it would ultimately be chaotic and have no underlying organization.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848892 - 07/01/04 11:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

But if disorder is PERFECT would that not also represent perfect order. I suggest that there is no difference between the two states.


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Offlineergot
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848903 - 07/01/04 11:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

This thread rocks. DoctorJ and Huehue, actually. The rest don't get it. HAH!


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848935 - 07/01/04 11:35 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

don't even get me started on the paradoxes that arise when examining the universe. Its just not a very reasonable place. Its both and neither.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848965 - 07/01/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Well, actually, its so unreasonable as to make perfect sense.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848976 - 07/01/04 11:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

all I'm saying is that for all the structure I see, I realize it is only substructure. I see no superstructure. Is it invisible to my eyes or does it simply not exist?


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