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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Swami]
    #2850002 - 07/02/04 01:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

word scramble games are fun...

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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a key to the universe [Re: Swami]
    #2850624 - 07/02/04 09:18 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
CHAOS ORDER = REACH DOORS

Does that have any significance?




sometimes you are real good at this.
wonder if you know it.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2850715 - 07/02/04 10:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mr crisper said:
can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?
one example will do....
chaos is a conclusion of one's limited perception. just cos the numbers get too big or complex for our brains, doesn't make it chaos.
scientists have tried for years to create true random number generators or random noise sources, for practical purposes they have succeeded in that the repetition rate is in milleniums. but on a universal scale, a few thousand years is nothing.

saying chaos is superior to order is like saying confusion is better than comprehension.
burn me  :sun:





Well, I guess we can't with all certainty say that something IS chaotic, we could only say that our perception of that object suggests chaos. 

but nevertheless, I have my belief.  Perhaps science will support me, perhaps it won't.  Only time will tell. 

As far as examples of randomness the best example I can think of is genetic mutation.  although natural selection is a fairly logical process, the mutations which drive this process do not seem to follow any order.  Its a good thing they dont, too, because I find the variety of species on this planet to be highly amusing.  I wouldn't want it any other way :smile:

As yet I have seen no proof of a unified logical order that runs  the universe.  When I roll dice, the number produced is essentially random.  Sure you could argue that the dice's output could be predicted by physics.  All this is possible in theory, but I have yet to see it happen.  Until I do, I cannot conclude that the output of those die is the product of an ordered system and not random chance.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2850828 - 07/02/04 11:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


As far as examples of randomness the best example I can think of is genetic mutation. although natural selection is a fairly logical process, the mutations which drive this process do not seem to follow any order.




you said it yourself - 'do not seem to ...'
yep the sums are too big, doesn't mean they aren't there.
look at dna, it is a code, a language, billions of bytes folded into single cells. languages and codes are created.

Quote:

When I roll dice, the number produced is essentially random. Sure you could argue that the dice's output could be predicted by physics. All this is possible in theory, but I have yet to see it happen. Until I do, I cannot conclude that the output of those die is the product of an ordered system and not random chance.



actually the current level of scientific knowledge would have a tough time trying to calculate the fall of the dice. as trendal said, for all intents and purposes it is random from our perspective
but whatever number the dice lands on is not a random event, it is the direct result of a combination of factors - the weight of the dice, the surface resistance of the tabletop, wind, arm speed and direction.
the laws governing matter and energy do not break down when the numbers get too big or the subjects get too small, only our ability to recognize them diminishes.

we exist in an organised structure.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2851039 - 07/02/04 11:45 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

show me the money!!!!












(all your craps winnings that is- if die rolls are the product of a logical system you SHOULD be able to predict them ahead of time. Predictability and repeatability are much stronger evidence than unproven theories and fairy tales)

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2851326 - 07/02/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Look at yourself, look at the planets, look at people mowing your lawns...

These are very ordered, their structure, they are filled with purpose.


But how we understand these things... that is quite chaotic :wink:

Seems more that the world you percieve always seem to be shifting in between order and chaos. Isnt that the way it works though?


--------------------
What?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2851506 - 07/02/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

chaos is full of order, and order is prone to chaos.
flux is the constant

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2851511 - 07/02/04 01:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

We just haven't discovered gods simple random-generator. We will see it's made out of pure order :wink:

Sorry, couldn't resist...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2851723 - 07/02/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Chaos = Order = Chaos

The only difference seems to be the words. What is order? Does it REALLY exist? Doesn't perfect chaos create perfect order? Like someone mentioned thinking about a tree as perfect order. But a tree is a fractal.

"In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order."
Carl Jung

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (07/02/04 03:55 PM)

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2851964 - 07/02/04 03:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

chaos is all inclusive.

Order is by definition, exclusive

When dealing with specifics, order is useful, but when dealing with generalities, such as the totality of all things, the general rule seems to be no rule at all, ie: chaos.

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2852144 - 07/02/04 04:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
if die rolls are the product of a logical system you SHOULD be able to predict them ahead of time. Predictability and repeatability are much stronger evidence than unproven theories and fairy tales




Quote:

mr crisper said:
actually the current level of scientific knowledge would have a tough time trying to calculate the fall of the dice. as trendal said, for all intents and purposes it is random from our perspective but whatever number the dice lands on is not a random event, it is the direct result of a combination of factors - the weight of the dice, the surface resistance of the tabletop, wind, arm speed and direction. the laws governing matter and energy do not break down when the numbers get too big or the subjects get too small, only our ability to recognize them diminishes.



There's too many factors for us to currently comprehend an outcome. It is beyond our perspective.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2852175 - 07/02/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

'beyond our perspective' ?


Isnt that the same excuse new agers use when defending claims they can't back up with repeatable experimental evidence?

"the spirits are there, man...  you just can't see them because they're in another dimension which is beyond our comprehension...  Now give me all your money!"
:grin:

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2852203 - 07/02/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:  You're right.

Quote:

There's too many factors for us to currently comprehend an outcome.



Does that phrase work better for you?  I'm sure experiements could be designed with sophisticated software.  All we'd need to do is fill in every single variable involved with the action of rolling a die.  I think what mr crisper is saying is that there are too many variables.  Because we don't acknowledge each one, it doesn't mean they don't exist in the determination of the die's outcome.  This could mean that chaos does not exist.  It never did.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2852232 - 07/02/04 05:17 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I would say that phrase is accurate, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

When do the factors end? There will always be new factors that remain unaccounted for as long as time continues. I suppose the factors end when time ends, but right now we have no idea when -or even if- thats going to happen.

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OfflineOddish
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2852492 - 07/02/04 07:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"But thought's the slave of life, and life's time's fool,
And time, that takes survey of all the world,
Must have a stop."

Courtesy of Mr. Aldous Huxley.  :smile:

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Oddish]
    #2852578 - 07/02/04 08:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

when time stops I will be too busy collapsing under the weight of my own gravity to eat my words :smile:  Or maybe I'll be freezing to death.  I'm not sure which model is currently most popular.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2863594 - 07/07/04 12:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

The way I look at it, order is a human construct. We, and only we, imply order. Order is a figment of our imagination. :grin:

Take, for instance, an encrypted password. To someone who does not know the encryption, the string is random, meaningless. To someone else that has the understanding of the encryption, the same collection of characters has meaning.

Before I go any further, is it safe for me to go out on a limb and associate order and meaning as basically being the same thing?

We as humans pick up on a pattern and BOOM! We have order! Someone listening to static might pick up a distingushable sound. Their brain does some quick scanning and it is identified as someone's voice, speaking through a walkie-talkie. That noise, to a different set or ears, could be considered completely random static and probably wouldn't even be noticed. It is only order if we identify with it and label it, and we need to remember that there is a difference between our label and what it is that we are labeling. Our label doesn't exist. :wink:

Of course, it is very important to consider the programs we use to identify and define order with. Isn't the universe existing independant of our perception of it? Is the universe itself carrying any meaning? Aren't we implying the meaning?

The way I see it, there is only one system known as the universe. Forming two seperate systems, chaos and order, might serve some value for us and our intentions, but we need to realize that all we define as order is merely our definition. I guess the universe is either completely random or completely ordered. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2878893 - 07/11/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Chaos can contain pockets of order. Chaos does not rule out some order. Conversly, an ordered sequence of numbers would not be allowed to have any chaotic number subsequences in it; by definition, order cannot include chaos. Chaos can contain order, but order cannot contain chaos."

I disagree.

I don't like your example with the numbers - in a chaotic system, sure 12345678 would show up, but it would be chaotic - 12345678 is not ordered. It only looks ordered to you because we are pattern-finding machines. The only order is an idea in our minds - its all chaos, we're just inventing and labeling order within it.

but that's just one idea..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2878932 - 07/11/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
The only order is an idea in our minds - its all chaos, we're just inventing and labeling order within it.




That's what I'm saying too. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2878958 - 07/11/04 05:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

oh yeah its probably a good idea to read all the replies before I post my own :wink:

Queue scolding by Sclorch


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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