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Anonymous

Chaos...
    #426593 - 10/15/01 08:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, I was running one of my cracked out theories through my dad and I said something about chaos creating. He said it was wrong because chaos doesn't create, it is created. I agree that chaos is created, but doesn't it create as well? Infact... isn't it a cycle?

Help me show the old man up!


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Invisiblesommer1331
confused
Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 93
Loc: Des Moines,IA,USA
Re: Chaos... [Re: Anonymous]
    #426634 - 10/15/01 09:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I deffinately agree that it is a cycle. I could see where he was coming from at first, but chaos can create. I've watched it happen.


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Invisibletak
geo's henchman
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 3,758
Loc: nowhereland
Re: Chaos... [Re: sommer1331]
    #426639 - 10/15/01 09:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

i just proved chaos was not a cycle! :P die


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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Anonymous

Re: Chaos... [Re: tak]
    #426643 - 10/15/01 09:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I just got done reading that post and I'm not sure what you proved... you die! I like the way you think though.


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Chaos... [Re: Anonymous]
    #426699 - 10/15/01 10:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, as with so many things, it depends on your definition of the word...chaos is considered to be random, un-predictable behaviour -- static, white noise...so not necessarily an absence of "order" as such -- after all, whats more perfectly symmetrical than static? A better definition would be "featureless", and in this sense, chaos is the most creative thing known to man:

(James Earl Jones voice) In the beginning...

...the early universe was really fucking hot...about 10 to the power 32 degrees. At this temperature, the four forces of physics (gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces) are welded into one, and all particles in the universe are reduced to a sea of quarks (or, according to string theory, a sea of identical strings existing in ten-dimensional spacetime) -- the elemenatary building blocks of matter. In other words, the familiar laws of physics decintegrate into total chaos, from which all order/complexity/life would subsequently spring. So tell yer dad chaos came first!

Sadly, as things evolve -- not just living things in this case -- they take energy from their environment and radiate it away as heat. This means that one day, the universe will die a "heat-death" -- all the available energy will have been used up and turned into a sea of photons...the universe will have returned to its initial featureless state.

Easy come, easy go...


Edited by Pynchon (10/15/01 10:53 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Chaos... [Re: Anonymous]
    #426719 - 10/15/01 10:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The universe is order.
Chaos is the opposite aspect of order.
Order and Chaos exist simultaneously.
Order is the end result of Chaos.
Chaos is the end result of order.
The universe is order.


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OfflineTeonanacatl fan
journeyman
Registered: 06/29/00
Posts: 38
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Chaos... [Re: ]
    #430057 - 10/19/01 02:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But what if the universe is chaos like Timothy Leary said?

Anyway chaos enhances the appreciation of harmony and good things, like a dead tree in the middle of a stunning forest.


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OfflineAmoeba665
strange
Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 275
Loc: a hidden microutopia at t...
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Chaos... [Re: Pynchon]
    #430199 - 10/19/01 06:06 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Sadly, as things evolve -- not just living things in this case -- they take energy from their environment and radiate it away as heat. This means that one day, the universe will die a "heat-death" -- all the available energy will have been used up and turned into a sea of photons...the universe will have returned to its initial featureless state.




although the universe is always in entropy, i believe energy is not lost by being converted to heat, it just changes to a form that is less useful to us. heat energy is still energy , the amount of energy in the universe is constant. so the question i have is, what is the amount of energy in the universe? is it infinite? and if it is, how does it all get converted to heat so that the cycle can restart?


"I say unto you: a man must have chaos yet within him to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: ye have chaos yet within you."
- Nieztsche


--------------------
---


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Chaos... [Re: Amoeba665]
    #430264 - 10/19/01 08:21 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Heat-death" is a bit of a misnomer -- once the sun, f'r instance, runs out of fuel, things are gonna get mighty cold, and nothing can make use of this lost energy because all known physical laws are subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics...consider it like this: heat flows from hot to cold...if a gas is hotter in one part of a vessel than another, the faster moving molecules in the hot region will soon communicate their excess energy to their slower moving neighbours through the repeated collisions. Soon enough, the energy will be shared out evenly...heat-death. Nothin new can happen after that -- when a deck of cards starts out in, say, numerical and suit sequence, shuffling them is gonna fuck it up.

Your in good company doubting the 2nd law tho'...my man Engels believed that ultimately "the task of scientific research (would be to demonstrate that) the heat radiated into space must be able to become transformed into another form of motion, in which it can be once more stored up and rendered active." -- tho its likely that he believed this for political reasons (not much of a dialectic when the end result is a stone cold turd, y'dig?)...but who knows? Maybe the Marxists knew something that we don't...

....again....



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