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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ?
    #5412953 - 03/17/06 02:02 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Why do people associate order with goodness and chaos with evil. Sometimes Order can produce mass evil. (governments) And evil can control with order. (Hitler)

When did this association start and why?

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413111 - 03/17/06 02:27 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

i don't associate them that way

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413221 - 03/17/06 02:54 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Why do people associate order with goodness and chaos with evil.  Sometimes Order can produce mass evil. (governments)  And evil can control with order. (Hitler)

When did this association start and why?




I've never heard of this association, first and foremost. Secondly, there isn't any true distinction that seperates chaos and order. The fact that we personally do not understand the mechanics responsible for the nature of "chaos" certainly doesn't imply that it is without order.

Essentially, its either all chaos or all order.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5413531 - 03/17/06 04:25 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Well, let me put this another way. Most people think that order is good... why? Is it better to be chaotic or orderly ?

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413702 - 03/17/06 04:51 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Well, let me put this another way. Most people think that order is good... why? Is it better to be chaotic or orderly ?




Because humans are naturally afraid of the unknown. If something is unpredictable, then we cannot guarantee safety. To add to that, most people are control freaks who can never let go.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5414130 - 03/17/06 06:04 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

"In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface, got it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began to teach that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order. "Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.

It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite. But anyway, Greyface and his followers took the game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were known even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from their own.

The unfortunate result of this is that mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now.

It is called THE CURSE OF GREYFACE."

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5414184 - 03/17/06 06:26 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

If I may ramble a bit I'll compare a bomb with chaos; War torn, rubble strewn streets with chaos; but after the bomb has created chaos reason seeps back in. Chaos may be a rebellion against reason, violent and temporary, and reason seeps back in, the grass grows, streets are swept and people go on about their lives.

It's a rebellion against the inevitable.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

Edited by Booby (03/17/06 06:48 PM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5415137 - 03/18/06 03:44 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Essentially, its either all chaos or all order.





:yesnod:

It's all based on the observers point of view or state of mind. It really has nothing to do with good vs evil either....more of a easy vs hard thang.

The person who has his life under control could be seen to be in a state of order, life seems easy and laid back for them.

The person who has not got his life under control could be seen to be in a state of chaos, life seems hard and trying for them.

We as humans try to put our life in some kind of order, to make it easier to deal with.

When I first started my new job things were very  difficult and chaotic.
Now things are very easy and orderly.

Nothing about the job is different other than my point of view or state of mind.

Not being overwhelmed by chaos is key to understanding the order behind the madness.

:wink:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisiblepupil
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5415176 - 03/18/06 04:36 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

i think this is an important question.

i agree with most of what's been said.

it's my personal belief, based on my life's observations, that order and chaos are two opposing forces that permeate each other. order strives to maintain consistency, predictability, structure. chaos opposes order on every scale throughout the endless universe. without both competing in the proper balance, life would not exist.

what i just said might sound hoakey to some, but i have some arguments to support it, although i should state as a disclaimer: these ideas are not my final conclusions...it's what makes the most sense to me at the moment.


--------------------

Edited by pupil (03/18/06 05:03 AM)

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5415187 - 03/18/06 04:59 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

The natural state of the mind is chaos. We are dealing with a complexity of information. The first thing to do is to overwhelm your focused mind, your linear mind. By overloading signals, digital patterns, clusters of photons and electrons which produce a pleasant state of confused chaos. This is the state of the brain when it is ready to be informed, that is to be reprogrammed. [...] Within our foreheads there is a chaos, inside our brains there is a galaxy of information which is incomprehensible to our linear mind. This contrast compares perfectly with the chaos without.[...] Chaos is beautiful. Many times we are afraid because we want order. We can't deal with the confusion and the disorder. We want form, we want rules. - Tim Leary (how to operate your brain)

The rational mind is our small platform of (illusory?) order resting on the right hemisphere's undividing state of chaotic wholeness.

Chaos is good, not evil. Order is good too. They are only yin and yang.

"Don't panic."

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (03/18/06 05:08 AM)

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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: dorkus]
    #5415193 - 03/18/06 05:18 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

order is boring.

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fresh313]
    #5415201 - 03/18/06 05:36 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Booby]
    #5415213 - 03/18/06 06:08 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.




Order and/or chaos has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Both are merely subjective classifications applied to the same phenomenon that have no effect on the phenomenon itself.

Order/chaos is an illusion that we create. Picture that.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: dorkus]
    #5415215 - 03/18/06 06:10 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
They are only (imaginary) yin and yang.





:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: pupil]
    #5415216 - 03/18/06 06:13 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

pupil said:
it's my personal belief, based on my life's observations, that order and chaos are two opposing forces that permeate each other.




And where do these two, opposing forces exist within, pray tell?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5415407 - 03/18/06 09:08 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Well no doubt existence itself is order emerging from, or even composed of, chaos.

Every living organism is a self-organizing system which must create an equal amount of disorder in its surroundings to maintain a certain level of order within. This is the law of entropy, that the universe tends to move towards a more chaotic state.

And even matter itself, is a chaotic cloud of subatomic probabilities which self-organizes into "solid", symmetrical forms.

Order and Chaos feeding off of each other. Perhaps it is true that they are not different at all.

A characteristic of life and self-organizing systems is that they act through replication. A pattern that supports itself and propagates itself will continue to exist, whereas a pattern that negates itself will cease to exist. This can be seen most explicitly in evolution and natural selection.

As humans we embody this kind of self-support and propagation. We fuck and multiply, we farm the land and feed ourselves, and we organize into groups to maximize our efficiency. If we don't do these things then we do not propagate and we cease to exist.

And so our bias towards order over chaos is simply an expression of our tendency to exist. To emerge as self-created beings...

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5415408 - 03/18/06 09:10 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Booby said:
Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.




Order and/or chaos has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Both are merely subjective classifications applied to the same phenomenon that have no effect on the phenomenon itself.

Order/chaos is an illusion that we create. Picture that.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




PC's, Xboxes and music have a lot to do with organizations, order.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Booby]
    #5415569 - 03/18/06 10:59 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

I don't know if X-Boxes are good :lol: But perhaps they stem from chaos, projected upon order again ? :lol:
I mean, if order does not let any room to beathe, then it is time for chaos to do some good :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/18/06 11:05 AM)

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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5415636 - 03/18/06 11:33 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

chaos is the epotimization of destruction. people think destruction i sbad.

Order is the opposite. Life exists not withour supreme order. How long would one live with a body that has become completely chaotically dsiarrayed. Life would not suffer long there.

The real misconception stems from peoples misunderstanding of live.

It is my firm believe that every philosophy and thought process is a direct result with our inherent and unctrollable desire to live.

Thus we associtate disorder whether organic or not, idealogical or tangible with evil because it goes agaisn the very nature of oder, the thing so desperately needed on a cellular level to continue to live.

ImpHO

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5415653 - 03/18/06 11:49 AM (18 years, 5 days ago)

Considering the term "chaos" in the mathematical/scientific sense (as opposed to the general descriptive word relative to our own perspective, as in, "this room is chaos, everything is thrown around everywhere"), it is quite evident that our universe is chaos.

Chaos has order. Even in the example pertaining to a general use of the term, the room is full of clutter, objects strewn about as if completely by random.

And yet, the state that the room is in is orderly. Specific actions placed each item where it is. The room is an organized system - the term chaos is merely employed by someone ignorant of that organization.

If anything, the recognization of order is "good" in that to recognize order is to understand, and understanding benefits oneself and one's life. Chaos is really ignorance of one's environment, which would thusly be classified as "evil" because it is a detriment to life.

Essentially, chaos/order is a false dichotomy. As I have already stated, it is either all chaos or it is all order. Mathematics and science, which are responsible for our understanding of the physical aspects of reality, seem to refer to it as chaos ("A dynamical system that has a sensitive dependence on its initial conditions."). :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5416901 - 03/18/06 07:16 PM (18 years, 5 days ago)

So you're saying that products and services dependent on organizations can exist in a state of chaos.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Booby]
    #5416914 - 03/18/06 07:22 PM (18 years, 5 days ago)

I like the thing Tim Leary says in "how to operate your brain" about chaos. Going there, and recreating yourself and you world the way it suits you from that chaos.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Booby]
    #5416936 - 03/18/06 07:30 PM (18 years, 5 days ago)

everything is order from chaos, electricity is a chaotic force by nature, we harness it by creating order of it. sending it pulsing through transistors, resistors, capacitors, and circuitboard channels.  is it boring once you create order? well, its predictable, and predicatability creates a rut and resulting in boredom, at least mine, sometimes.

ironic that static is dynamic.  :mushroom2:

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5418707 - 03/19/06 12:42 PM (18 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Booby said:
Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.




Order and/or chaos has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Both are merely subjective classifications applied to the same phenomenon that have no effect on the phenomenon itself.

Order/chaos is an illusion that we create. Picture that.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




If order/chaos is an illusion then so is the idea that order/chaos is an illusion. Saying things like this gets you nowhere.

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5418756 - 03/19/06 01:03 PM (18 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

I've never heard of this association, first and foremost.




Come on man, I know you have played rpg's. Order - blue Chaos - red Order - good Chaos - bad

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OfflineHarmonic_Order
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5420839 - 03/19/06 11:21 PM (18 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
"In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface, got it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began to teach that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order. "Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.

It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite. But anyway, Greyface and his followers took the game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were known even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from their own.

The unfortunate result of this is that mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now.

It is called THE CURSE OF GREYFACE."




Hail Eris!


--------------------
.oOo. Are you high? .oOo.
.oOo. You look like you're on some kind of drug .oOo.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5424862 - 03/21/06 11:30 AM (18 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Why do people associate order with goodness and chaos with evil.  Sometimes Order can produce mass evil. (governments)  And evil can control with order. (Hitler)

When did this association start and why?




I think people associate chaos with disaster and a situation out of their immediate control like a food fight or being in the midst of a tornado.

I think we label chaotic what situations we have little to no control over or lost control over.

I think order is the natural ongoing state of things simply because of the law of cause and effect.

Nature has systems built into systems built into systems etc and there is an order to all of them. Humans have created their own systems of control and order to override those of nature for varying reasons.

When human made systems of order developed for controls to be maintained meet up and conflict with natures systems or even other human made systems, we get what we call chaos.

Would anyone care if a Cat 5 hurricane hit a barren desert?

Look at what happened when Hurricane Katrina which met up with thousands of human made systems. We called it chaos.

We call it order when sugar is added to lemon juice to make lemonaide. We call it chaos when Jr adds dirt to lemon juice we planned on drinking. Same order of addition was in play. The only difference is, we lost control over what was being added to the mix. 

Next time you meet up with a situation labeled to be total chaos, take note of a how a natural system is in conflict with a human made system for keeping order (control) or "sense" of order (being in control). Jr. likes playing with dirt. It was natural for him to come in from outside and add it to the juice mix when you were on the phone. :shrug:

There is even order within perceived chaos like in a food fight. First Jane throws a plate of spaghetti at Ron's head. Secondly, Ron lobs a bowl of pudding at Jane's face and it also lands on Rick and Sue. Thridly, Rick flings a spoonful of mashed potatoes at a whole table of people. Fourthly, Sue then dives under the table, etc. There is cause and effect order taking place there, though the lunchroom supervisor sees chaos and feels she must reestablish order to the cafeteria.  :confused:

There is always just the order of cause and effect action in play. When a human sees or experiences destruction/disaster they don't like and or feel they have lost control over it, they call it chaos.

Chaos can be a synonym for "loss of human controls (systems) over naturally ordered systems of cause and effect." Chaos to me is just a percpetual label put on a situation where we see loss of human control based on human systems of order, over a situation.

Just my take on it.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5429136 - 03/22/06 09:09 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
If order/chaos is an illusion then so is the idea that order/chaos is an illusion. Saying things like this gets you nowhere.




My reasoning for the statement is not simply that the idea is an illusion because it is an idea. I am stating that it is a false dichotomy, that it is a unnecessary classification that does not reflect the reality of the manner.

Thus, it is an illusion that we create, in that it is an idea that isn't based on a correct observation of reality itself. Distinguishing phenomenon between chaos and order is resultant from our ignorance of the orderly mechanics responsible for what we might describe as "chaotic". The last that I knew, cause and effect still prevail.

The fact that a system is quite complex and dynamic, and we cannot take into consideration or know all of the factors responsible for the workings within the system, does not mean that it is any less orderly than "order".

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5429147 - 03/22/06 09:12 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

"Thus, it is an illusion that we create, in that it is an idea that isn't based on a correct observation of reality itself."

Is it really possible to have have a correct observation of reality itself.? If so, give me an example of this observation.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5429298 - 03/22/06 10:01 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

The temperature at which water boils? :grin:

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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5429337 - 03/22/06 10:18 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Fine, but what IS the tempature at which water boils? :uptosomething:

(If you look it up your cheating)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5429340 - 03/22/06 10:20 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Fine, but what IS the tempature at which water boils? :uptosomething:



100 degrees Celsius.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5429347 - 03/22/06 10:22 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Fahrenheit?

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5429373 - 03/22/06 10:32 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

That depends on how far above sea level you are :wink:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5429394 - 03/22/06 10:38 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Fahrenheit?



Quote:

I said:
Celsius




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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5429429 - 03/22/06 10:49 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Fahrenheit?



Quote:

I said:
Celsius







Oh oh, but that was a question. Thus the question mark.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5429443 - 03/22/06 10:57 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Let it go. This thread isn't about math.


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InvisibleBuddahKillah
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5429708 - 03/22/06 12:10 PM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Your right, how can I delete this thread?

Edited by BuddahKillah (03/22/06 12:11 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5430362 - 03/22/06 03:01 PM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Your finger will hurt much more at high airrpressure than on mountaintops when holding it in boiling water :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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