Swami said:

CHAOS ORDER = REACH DOORS

Does that have any significance?

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mr crisper said:

can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?
one example will do....
chaos is a conclusion of one's limited perception. just cos the numbers get too big or complex for our brains, doesn't make it chaos.
scientists have tried for years to create true random number generators or random noise sources, for practical purposes they have succeeded in that the repetition rate is in milleniums. but on a universal scale, a few thousand years is nothing.

saying chaos is superior to order is like saying confusion is better than comprehension.
burn me 

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Well, I guess we can't with all certainty say that something IS chaotic, we could only say that our perception of that object suggests chaos. 

but nevertheless, I have my belief.  Perhaps science will support me, perhaps it won't.  Only time will tell. 

As far as examples of randomness the best example I can think of is genetic mutation.  although natural selection is a fairly logical process, the mutations which drive this process do not seem to follow any order.  Its a good thing they dont, too, because I find the variety of species on this planet to be highly amusing.  I wouldn't want it any other way

As yet I have seen no proof of a unified logical order that runs  the universe.  When I roll dice, the number produced is essentially random.  Sure you could argue that the dice's output could be predicted by physics.  All this is possible in theory, but I have yet to see it happen.  Until I do, I cannot conclude that the output of those die is the product of an ordered system and not random chance.

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As far as examples of randomness the best example I can think of is genetic mutation. although natural selection is a fairly logical process, the mutations which drive this process do not seem to follow any order.

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When I roll dice, the number produced is essentially random. Sure you could argue that the dice's output could be predicted by physics. All this is possible in theory, but I have yet to see it happen. Until I do, I cannot conclude that the output of those die is the product of an ordered system and not random chance.

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DoctorJ said:

if die rolls are the product of a logical system you SHOULD be able to predict them ahead of time. Predictability and repeatability are much stronger evidence than unproven theories and fairy tales

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mr crisper said:

actually the current level of scientific knowledge would have a tough time trying to calculate the fall of the dice. as trendal said, for all intents and purposes it is random from our perspective but whatever number the dice lands on is not a random event, it is the direct result of a combination of factors - the weight of the dice, the surface resistance of the tabletop, wind, arm speed and direction. the laws governing matter and energy do not break down when the numbers get too big or the subjects get too small, only our ability to recognize them diminishes.

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  You're right.

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There's too many factors for us to currently comprehend an outcome.

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Strumpling said:

The only order is an idea in our minds - its all chaos, we're just inventing and labeling order within it.

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That's what I'm saying too.


Peace.