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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: shroomydan]
    #5108920 -

what about neutrino's and positrons which pop in and out of existence constantly?

im really not trying to be difficult or play devil's advocate here. Im merely sitting on Planck's wall (sp?) in a philosophical position.

There are two things which we as humans, are incapable of comprehending and quantizing to fit our "logic": non-existence and infinity.
You either have to say that something has always existed, or something came from nothing. the first could only be defined as long as the concept of non-existence is there for "existence" to be distinct. The second, is so far from possibly grasping that we have to consider it implausible and say "non-existence doesnt exist".... which then we can all laugh...

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5109029 -

What about neutrino's and positrons which pop in and out of existence constantly?

These come from and return to empty space, and in the quantum mechanical model of reality, space is very much a something.

Non-existence does not exist.  :lol:

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: shroomydan]
    #5109094 -

the QM model of reality was created through quantization of forces and particles. How do you quantize non-existence? you cant, so the only way to work on the model was to "theorize" (more like guess) that these neutrino's "magically" "popped" into an alternate dimensional space.

But most of the QP books I have read actually use the word "existence" when referring to the characteristics of positrons and such.

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5109562 -

This sounds like my whole semester in philosophy. From descartes to hume, hume to searle, and searle to wielenberg.

And there are things i agreed with going through, and im going to agree with you in most part, we exist because we can. There is a lot of chaos in the universe, and a lot of order. I know this may seem kind of contradictory, but to me we are just a part of nature, an ordered chaos, or chaotic order..

The whole mathematics thing isnt what our neurons decide, they dont run calculations, they just react, to other processes, like the processes inside a hurricane, maybe not as much.

But there are so many factors, how much heat is in the air, in the water, the currents, the air pressure, and each one of these is acted on by other things at the same time... fluctuations in gravity, intensities of the sun, and everything else in the universe.

Thats the problem with freedom of the will though right, how can there be any free will in a causually closed, causaully determined universe? Are there corners or pockets of freedom? I dont think so.

But to me, i rest with just the ordered chaos of nature, watching it go, making more complex things as times moves on, as entropy increases, or more or less, the matter becomes more dense, and consolidates itself into more refined systems. Its like decay, but its also birth, like biological materials, when they break down, they are absorbed and made into new more complex structures.

I think this can explain a lot of the phenomenon in the universe, and can answer not only why we are here, but how we are here.

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5109613 -

Non-existence exists. I see it but quite a little more pragmatic. What about the content of your fridge, or your left arm ? To begin with :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Zero7a1]
    #5112165 -

Zero7a1 said:
Thats the problem with freedom of the will though right, how can there be any free will in a causually closed, causaully determined universe? Are there corners or pockets of freedom? I dont think so.


Rejection of SCCD eliminates the argument of free will vs. determinism altogether. We're not talking about simple cause and effect - that exists, no question. It's the DEGREE of causality that I'm questioning.

Pockets of freedom? I don't even know how to respond to that... it's meaningless to me. Freedom is a human concept... based on perceived or arbitrary limits. Take this sentence "We aren't free to move the sun about the sky any way we like." The sentence is grammatically (language math) correct, but it doesn't make any sense. And why? Because "free" and "freedom" implies the ability to intend. Intent is the problem. We project it everywhere on everything. Subtract intent from either side of the "free will vs. determinism" debate and the argument falls apart entirely. If there is no invisible "who" (be it god, a flying spaghetti monster, JHVH-1, the laws of physics, or whatever) granting, allowing, guiding, or making room for our actions/decisions, then it doesn't matter which "who" "did" "what."

Is my point clear yet?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5113159 -

"in the beginning, there was nothing, then the lord said 'let there be light'... there was still nothing, but you could see it a hell of a lot better"
                          -unknown
:laugh:


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5113880 -

Pockets of freedom... Yes, its meaningless to me too! This is what i hear in my philosophy class, and it makes no sense, but i repeat it in order to articulate how absurd i think it is... in any regard... As far as intention goes, well, ill leave it be, things are about in and of themselves, we simply have the ability to percieve in our own minds, and judge for ourselves, what that aboutness is.

This is why i really cant stand philosophy...Whats with all these silly questions? I do agree with you, the argument is meaningless... What im trying to understand is what relevance does the argument have at all? You had an intention for writing the post, thats what im trying to figure out, its about The Suck: , and im guessing all it was "about" is trying to express how meaningless the whole argument is.

If thats the case, then i understand perfectly well... where is there to go from there, is that the end? Or what.

Is there some great question in philosophy that is just like limiting people, or philosophers, and everyone is like "omg" whats the answer... ? and everyone is trying to come to some kind of conclusion... Is there some ultimate goal, becaus i feel like there is just something maybe im not aware of, maybe thats why it just seems so absurd to me... i really dont know, maybe you could help me out.

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Zero7a1]
    #5125697 -

Zero7a1 said:
Is there some great question in philosophy that is just like limiting people, or philosophers, and everyone is like "omg" whats the answer... ? and everyone is trying to come to some kind of conclusion... Is there some ultimate goal, becaus i feel like there is just something maybe im not aware of, maybe thats why it just seems so absurd to me... i really dont know, maybe you could help me out.


Hmm... new thread.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5125741 -

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao. You cannot figure out what is ungraspable.

I don't pretend to be able to keep up with discussions like this but the above is my simple overview of this thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Suck: Strong Causality/Causal Determinism [Re: Icelander]
    #5126031 -

Icelander said:
The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao. You cannot figure out what is ungraspable.

I don't pretend to be able to keep up with discussions like this but the above is my simple overview of this thread.


Not a very accurate Cliffs Notesesque summary... but not a bad concept if you drop the idea of "ungraspable".


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

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