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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #940759 - 10/07/02 05:33 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you  :smile:

you're quite level headed yourself  :grin:
 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940773 - 10/07/02 05:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Would you call a computer program metaphysical? I don't think it fits.
Just because something isn't static doesn't mean it is metaphysical.


No, a computer program operates according to physical laws. It is a predictable, ordered system. A computer program does not exhibit randomness or free will.

it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe

yeah but you have to have faith to believe that what you observe is what really is.

c'mon Sclorch, can't you admit that you believe certain things on faith? why is faith such a bad thing?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940810 - 10/07/02 05:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe
yeah but you have to have faith to believe that what you observe is what really is.

Who doesn't have faith in what they observe?
I mean, we can play with semantics here and apply faith to everything... you know damn well which connotation of 'faith' I'm trying to avoid.

c'mon Sclorch, can't you admit that you believe certain things on faith?

Faith in observation. Faith in uncertainty. Faith in thought. Faith in self.
That's about it.


why is faith such a bad thing?

Faith is, with few exceptions (see above), blind to reason.
Faith discourages doubt.
For the most part, doubt is virtuous as it encourages thinking.
I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940830 - 10/07/02 05:51 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.



I have been accused of 'thinking too much.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940869 - 10/07/02 05:59 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Who doesn't have faith in what they observe?

But if I observe God (or aliens for that matter), wouldn't you say that faith in that observation isn't logical? Isn't this a double standard?
Why is faith in the observation of free will valid, but faith in the observation of God unacceptable to the skeptic?

I'm not talking blind faith, and I'm not talking "faith in everything", so drop the semantics. ALL debates can be reduced to a semantic battle so lets not go there.

Faith is, with few exceptions (see above), blind to reason.
Faith discourages doubt.
For the most part, doubt is virtuous as it encourages thinking.
I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.


I agree, sort of. For me, faith only fills the gap that reason and science will never fill. So I see no conflict between faith and reason.

and no, thinking is not a bad thing, neither is faith.



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940923 - 10/07/02 06:20 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

But if I observe God (or aliens for that matter), wouldn't you say that faith in that observation isn't logical? Isn't this a double standard?

Observing God? A big if...
It'd be more likely an interpretation of observations.

If I make an erroneous observation, I'll take note of it and look for the error.
For example: When a magician performs a feat, I do not believe it is magic... it is a trick and nothing more. However, when I was a child I most certainly attributed it to "magic".

I have made plenty erroneous observations in my life and damn near every one of them had a rational explanation (which I usually stumbled upon later).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #941313 - 10/07/02 09:16 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Observing God? A big if...
It'd be more likely an interpretation of observations
If I make an erroneous observation, I'll take note of it and look for the error.


Couldn't the observation of free will also be an "erroneous observation"? Isn't that another big "if"?

Philosophically, the belief in free will and the belief in God are not that different. I'm not saying you should believe in God. But if you believe in free will, you must also be open to the possibility of the existence of other things "not based in the physical plane".

You can't have it both ways.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #941388 - 10/07/02 10:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You can't have it both ways.

No, but you try in your response to schlorch. If there is no free will, then he obviously is not free to decide that there is or isn't. No free will = no choice.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #941637 - 10/08/02 02:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Your produce alone has been worth the trip.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Swami]
    #942520 - 10/08/02 10:32 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Huh?

I'm not advocating determism here.

I think all of us here believe in free will. I'm just trying to get at Sclorch's justification for believing in something without any supporting evidence and how that conflicts with the skeptic's viewpoint.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #942529 - 10/08/02 10:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you Mr Mushrooms. And what a trip it's been!

We were so close this time around. But alas, the unseen center defies human comprehension.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #943035 - 10/08/02 01:41 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'd forgotten, but I mean wow, your planet is really bright.


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #943111 - 10/08/02 02:18 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Huh?

I'm not advocating determism here.

I think all of us here believe in free will. I'm just trying to get at Sclorch's justification for believing in something without any supporting evidence and how that conflicts with the skeptic's viewpoint.


Who are you to test Sclorch's faith and his own matrix? Morpheus? :wink:

Check your PM. 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Calen]
    #943586 - 10/08/02 05:09 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

No, not THE Morpheus  :wink:

I'm not testing anybody's faith or beliefs, but is it too much to ask for consistency of belief?

Sclorch wanted to know what I thought, so I told him. I thought I should get it all out during my 2 week window of sobriety  :grin:

In any case, it's usually the skeptics that do all the "testing" of beliefs around here but we could all benefit from an examination of our basic beliefs.
 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #943882 - 10/08/02 07:07 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm just trying to get at Sclorch's justification for believing in something without any supporting evidence

My supporting evidence is what I observe.  I observe free will (though I DO doubt it all the time...).  It doesn't seem illusory to me, therefore I have no reason to believe such a claim.  Furthermore, I think a belief in free will  is much healthier than a belief in determinism.

and how that conflicts with the skeptic's viewpoint.
When did I claim to subscribe to the skeptic's viewpoint?
I will acknowledge that I am often skeptical... but that only means I have the ability to doubt.  I've been falsely branded a skeptic.  That's why I'm always putting quotes around skeptic.... like this:  I am a "skeptic".  Duh! :wink:

In any case, it's usually the skeptics that do all the "testing" of beliefs around here
Careful.  Try this: "skeptics".

but we could all benefit from an examination of our basic beliefs.
This is true.   


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #945799 - 10/09/02 01:26 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You "observe" free will?

Please elaborate.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #946234 - 10/09/02 03:58 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Observation through experience.
I am not forced to do anything.  I rarely feel compelled to think or act.

jfk;lsadjfksdajfaf[j[jfi
Was that me proving my own ability to assert my will;kdjf; sdffuck you assholiofjsdl;fjl ????

I don't have Turret's syndrome... so, what was THAT ^^^?

I just fucking DID it.  That's all.  I chose.

*Tomorrow Never Knows by the Beatles is playing now... badass*

Anyways.  What do you want from me?
Most people (what... 7 billion-ish) would agree that we have free will.
To me, this is not the fallacy of appeal to common practice (or whatever fallacy it could be).  With numbers like that (cross-cultural too), I really can't see how someone could deny that we don't, at least, OBSERVE free will.

Whatever... this is just part of my "programming", right?
Well, you might be impressed with thought experiments like SUPERPARRY, but I'm not. :smirk: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #948137 - 10/10/02 02:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Observation through experience.
I am not forced to do anything. I rarely feel compelled to think or act.


Determinism is not contingent on 'feeling' one way or another.  That may be a component of the interpretation of soft determinism but it may be incorrect.  Determinism evidences itself by the causality of all things including humans.  Every thought, every action, every feeling that you have is predetermined long before you ever existed.  All of your past experiences combined with your DNA make you, you.  You have no more free will than a rock that 'acts' under the influence of gravity and just about as much choice.

I don't have Turret's syndrome... so, what was THAT ^^^?

It's Tourette's syndrome but that's neither here nor there.  That that you typed was the pure result from the DNA you possess combined with your past experiences.  Not only would you have acted that way when placed in this situation but a person with enoun information about you could have predicted it perfectly.  You could not ahve acted otherwise.

*Tomorrow Never Knows by the Beatles is playing now... badass*

Anyways. What do you want from me?
Most people (what... 7 billion-ish) would agree that we have free will.
To me, this is not the fallacy of appeal to common practice (or whatever fallacy it could be). With numbers like that (cross-cultural too), I really can't see how someone could deny that we don't, at least, OBSERVE free will.


The Beatles rock hard!  Or so my programming says.

The fallacy you are referring to is argumentum consensus gentium or argumentum ad populum.  Many people believe in God too.  It proves nothing, AND not all people agree we have free will.  No serious-minded determinist would ever concede that.

Whatever... this is just part of my "programming", right?
Well, you might be impressed with thought experiments like SUPERPARRY, but I'm not. :smirk:


Indeed.

Very little impresses me.

:smile:

Cheers, 


Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (10/10/02 02:24 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #949702 - 10/10/02 01:05 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

That that you typed was the pure result from the DNA you possess combined with your past experiences. Not only would you have acted that way when placed in this situation but a person with enough (sp- :wink:) information about you could have predicted it perfectly. You could not have (typo- :wink:) acted otherwise.

I knew it... you're a compatibilist.  Ya fuckin' liar. :wink:

The compatibilist argument is a cop-out that makes garbage trucks seem to smell like fresh jasmine.  That might not be harsh enough...

I take it you're not a fan of existentialism... are ya?  I bet you've only skimmed through post-enlightenment philosophy.  Don't go looking in your encyclopedia of philosophy... you can't prove to me that you know it merely by regurgitating concepts or definitions. 

I'm calling you out.  I'm asking you to forget about Aristotle for ten minutes and focus on the dirty.  The dirty that gets shooed out every night in some sleazy club downtown when the houselights go on.  I'm talking about the dirty that coats the fingers of that angst-ridden teenager finding cool in a toilet stall between bells.  I'm talking about the dirty that floats in the air and coats the hair of every ghetto kid.  I'm talking about the dirty that's never rinsed off a martini glass.  I'm talking about the dirty that forces it's way out of a well-fingered upright bass' f-holes.  I'm talking about the dirty that can't really be talked about.  I'm talking about the dirty that must be experienced.  Yeah... that dirty.

When you understand that dirty, you can let go of theories and see the beast within.  The beast won't let you down... much.

No one is perfect... well, at least we're all perfectly imperfect.  There is no catch-all theory for life... but there is a catch-all mindset.  It can move in and out of all paradigms... all theories... all philosophies... all ideas... all thoughts... with the grace of a ballroom dancer.  It is limited only by a person's insecurity.

If only all this were taken to as unreferierbar...   


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #950130 - 10/10/02 04:14 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

THAT was extremely funny!

sniff sniff

All my powered nose has ever smelt is a slightly used handkerchief and some linen that had gotten musty because it wasn't properly rotated in the linen closet.

Of all the posts you have ever written I like this one more than most and more than any that I can directly call to memory.

Well done!

Cheers, 


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