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 relativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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 Re: the nature of randomness  [Re: LunarEclipse]
#3379952 - 11/18/04 02:43 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Individuals that survive and reproduce contribute their genes more often to the gene pool than individuals who die before they reproduce.
exactly thats not random. it is caused by something such as certain genetic traits having better adaptability.
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 LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: deff]
#3379963 - 11/18/04 02:47 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 03:42 PM)
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,489
Loc: clarity 
Last seen: 52 minutes, 27 seconds
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it's odd though, really.
it appears 'random' has no bearing or 'existence' in directly percieved reality. and yet, the concept of random is one that is shared, or assumed to be, by most people. where does the concept arise, and how was it mutually dispersed like that?
if you were to define it to your self, in you thoughts, but without words (just pure knowingness- direct experience, no linguistic encryption - a good exercise to look at direct meanings behind abstracts) what would it be?
so, to me it appears as a no to 'if', but I'm clueless on the 'how' 
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: deff]
#3380106 - 11/18/04 03:16 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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asaskP fghsdas nnnn*we"asdakkkk adfdqpriurjr werkjslakjsdoir a=245 sdf'sdf09f m35455 2,45;245/lknsdf./adf
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The proof is in the pudding.
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,489
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 52 minutes, 27 seconds
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: Swami]
#3380115 - 11/18/04 03:17 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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*nods*
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: deff]
#3380136 - 11/18/04 03:21 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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reality.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 03:41 PM)
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: Swami]
#3380155 - 11/18/04 03:24 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
asaskP fghsdas nnnn*we"asdakkkk adfdqpriurjr werkjslakjsdoir a=245 sdf'sdf09f m35455 2,45;245/lknsdf./adf
Anagram that! Lol.
I had a dream about that 2 nights ago. First, there was like a huge sheet of matte silver rubber. Then it turned into what looked like stained glass and you could pull pieces out from it like a puzzle and make things. Then the sheet just became a reflective mirror, but was all 3 at the same time and I was just seeing layers of it. It was wild.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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I often have dreams of rubber and latex... 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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The_Visionaire
Torch
Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Relative: your answer reveals that you have not understood my post (the first post in this thread that is..) Hey, I am an advocate of causality too!
In addition I will claim that causality is the veicle of meaning. If something was truly random it would be separate from the rest of creation and having no common ground or language with the rest of creation it is meaningless and non-existent.
The forces of nature is information, information expressed is meaning. This concept of meaning is of course of a more fundamental nature than what we usually put into the word.
I understand that such a wording may seem far-fetched, but why does the electron move? One might say because of forces, but then why does the forces move the electron? I do not think forces are pulled down from heaven and put into our universe to work on the atoms. The forces is a consequence of the interplay of all that is, and the forces they are achanging.
The meaning we might experience (the deep meaning which is a feeling and not an intellectual thought) is really the emergence of all the universal forces accumulating in the constellation attributed to your essence.
Lunar:
The bird singing is an unfoldment of what the bird is. (what the bird is is the meaning of the bird). This applies to all a bird might do for that matter.
A rock is perfectly comfortable by sitting still being a rock, that is the rock's meaning. For some rocks that would not be enought though, and that is why we have rock slides and the rolling stones rock.
Bottom line:
meaning is 'what is' (not something that something has), if something is meaningless (empty) it is non-existent.
The inherent meaning in all things is why the shaman can talk with a tree 
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There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: Swami]
#3380390 - 11/18/04 04:16 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
I often have dreams of rubber and latex...
 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: Swami]
#3380394 - 11/18/04 04:17 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
asaskP fghsdas nnnn*we"asdakkkk adfdqpriurjr werkjslakjsdoir a=245 sdf'sdf09f m35455 2,45;245/lknsdf./adf
Was that supposed to demonstrate how randomness is truly random?
Because I see repeating patterns in it. :P
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Randomness does not imply an even distribution nor non-repetitiveness.
Do the dice rolls: 5 2, 5 1, 5 3, 5 2 demonstrate randomness or non-randomness, or is there insufficient information to tell?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: Swami]
#3380474 - 11/18/04 04:46 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Insufficient information!
Your first die could be weighted to always land on 5 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: trendal]
#3380645 - 11/18/04 05:17 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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What for? If I didn't know what Entropy was, I probably wouldn't talk about it so often 
Oh, and dictionary.com isn't the best resource for scientific/philosophy ideas. Just because they use the word "randomness" to describe Entropy doesn't mean that's what Entropy is...it's just how they're trying to explain it
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: trendal]
#3380653 - 11/18/04 05:18 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Hmm. There was a post by someone else there when I posted the above post...
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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entiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 1,043
Loc: miami, florida
Last seen: 16 years, 28 days
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I felt the same way, and then I read of quantum particles and whatnot. I don't know quantum physics, I could never claim to, but from what I've read, there is a randomness in those super duper tiny particles called atoms. things change if you observe them, they take on new characteristics. they make up larger objects that we can observe more directly, and definitely have an order. but perhaps that order is part of a greater set that is chaotic? and even then, that set would eventually find a pattern. as it expands, it will become chaotic.
out of chaos comes order. out of order comes chaos.
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/opinion
.sean
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relativexistance
"beads, bees!?!?beads ....BEADS!!!"
Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 1,778
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: entiformatie]
#3380901 - 11/18/04 06:09 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
entiformatie said:
out of chaos comes order. out of order comes chaos.
thats where the frame comes in, in one frame it is observed as chaos. in another broader frame it is order.
Edited by relativexistance (11/18/04 06:31 PM)
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: the nature of randomness [Re: entiformatie]
#3380908 - 11/18/04 06:10 PM (20 years, 21 days ago) |
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I think it's actually quite a BIG mistake to think that quantum theory implies a sort of underlying randomness to our Universe.
The idea comes from the fact that when we measure certain aspects of a subatomic particle, we cannot measure the particle without AFFECTING it during measuring - thus tainting some of the aspects we wish to measure. It's called the Uncertainty Principle.
Now, just because we cannot measure something with perfect accuracy, does not mean a specific value doesn't exist!
That's like saying "I can't see bacteria with my eyes, so they must not exist."
I could be wrong, of course, but only time and technolgical advancement will tell 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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entiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 1,043
Loc: miami, florida
Last seen: 16 years, 28 days
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But that is not what I am saying.
We can be as accurate as we'd like, a specific value does not exist until you have observed it or not, which means the future is not set in stone. I believe in free will, and that we choose when to observe. If you do not believe in free will, then when you choose to observe is not your choice, so indeed there is no randomness. I guess it depends on your stance on free will.
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/opinion
.sean
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