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OfflineBerkleeStu00
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Registered: 07/14/02
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Law & Chaos
    #925317 - 10/02/02 05:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What is man's obsession with structure and law? When I'm sober I find structure very satisfying, and comforting. When my desk is neat, it makes me happy because I know where everything is, and if I need something, I go right to it. When I dosed at Phil in Camden NJ this summer, I remember staring out to the waterfront (we had lawn tickets) and being just enthralled with how beautiful the bridge was. It was just swaying in the breeze with rainbow lights reflecting off of it.

However, when tripping I find myself having a hard time looking at uniform structure. It's hard for me to look at a wall with a uniform pattern, or at a checkered floor. But if I stare at the dancing clouds, I find it quite beautiful. Nature always ALWAYS seems to be the best setting for tripping. Maybe because it's wild and chaotic??

What books would anybody reccomend on this topic?

Steve


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #925431 - 10/02/02 05:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What is man's obsession with structure and law? When I'm sober I find structure very satisfying, and comforting.

I can honestly say that this barely applies to me.
I think I'm relatively organized. Of course, I worship the Lord Uncertainty and the Holy Spirit of Confusion...

However, I have observed many people who are pretty obsessive about organization. I think you hit the nail on the head with your second sentence though... order is comforting. Order makes us feel secure. I often wonder if their is a correlation between order and insecurity in people...

As for the "barely" part... I admit that when I go about certain tasks, I am quite organized (the bigger the task, the more organized I tend to be).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 2,473
Loc: The Shadow of Neptune
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #925479 - 10/02/02 06:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The order of nature, (a rainforest would be a prime example but i don't live near any to trip in them so I have to settle for desiduos)  is very soothing to me.  The order man has imposed on it is not. I don't like tripping in cities compared to a rural area, the trip is much different for me...  a city makes me tense, and leavs me craving an open field with large trees and fresh air. 
>"I find it quite beautiful. Nature always ALWAYS seems to be the best setting for tripping. Maybe because it's wild and chaotic??"
Yes, the chaos ends up being quite beautiful, doesn't it?  :smirk: 


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #925959 - 10/02/02 08:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I am more attracted to the chaotic form of organization nature seems to take, it knows what its doing, its got a system all figured out so it *is* organized, but in a beautiful, wild, random kind of way. Sometimes I appreciate organization, like when i'm in intellectual mode, but when i'm in nothing but spiritual mode i crave chaos. I'm getting back into intellectual mode this week because i just started school up again, but this is creative school- i'm doing recording arts, i get to create music. I'll have a balance of the organized (techincal) and the chaotic (creative, spiritual)

It's all beautiful in its own way.


Edited by NiamhNyx (10/02/02 08:48 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #927377 - 10/03/02 04:42 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

<---- Organized Chaos


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Shroomism]
    #927388 - 10/03/02 04:46 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

a desk will make it work


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: CleverName]
    #927390 - 10/03/02 04:47 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I was reffering to my avatar... but yeah  :grin: 


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Shroomism]
    #927398 - 10/03/02 04:49 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:grin: 


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #929514 - 10/03/02 10:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

There is an equivocation concerning the term 'chaos' in this thread. Nature is highly organized though the appearance of nature is not.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #931782 - 10/04/02 01:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Nature is highly organized though the appearance of nature is not.

Ah, absolutism... your Greek is showing.

Many aspects of nature are highly organized though they appear not.

It's too bad there are now two opposing definitions for the term "chaos."


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #931940 - 10/04/02 02:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

order. chaos.

you are seeing conflict where none exist.

chaos does not oppose order. chaos is order.

the perfectly smooth surface of this desk is actually a chaotic jumble of molecules.
from space, the ocean is as smooth as glass, as you descend into the chaos, you see that it is a teeming quantum foam.
where raindrops fall at chaotic angles, each follows a path determined by factors too numerous to calculate, but it does follow an ordered path - we just can't predict it - hence we label it chaotic.
order and chaos is a contrived duality of the human mind. it is far from absolute truth. our binary brains often see two where there is one.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #931955 - 10/04/02 03:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'd definately have to agree. I'm almost obsessively organized when I'm sober, but when I'm tripping, it's like my brain scrambles. I love to watch my wood floor fold in chaotic patterns and other distortions of organized reality, but that can only go so far. Nature is definately the best setting for this reason. You never know what you're going to see. There could be clouds of all different shapes, the trees swaying in the wind, and on a clear night, it seems I can see each and every one of the trillions of stars in the universe.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932057 - 10/04/02 03:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

nice post! i definitely agree with you


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932712 - 10/04/02 07:53 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

but it does follow an ordered path - we just can't predict it - hence we label it chaotic

infidelGOD-
1. How does free will get worked into YOUR equation here?
2. Are you familiar with compatibilism?
3. What is hope?
4. Are you familiar with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932782 - 10/04/02 08:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah. It seems that any idea that has a direct opposite like "evil" or "order"- those things that are clearly completely relative to their opposites for them to make any sense- are better acknowledged as non-existent. It just breeds confusion and suffering. When we have found away to explain a phenomenon to our satisfaction, then it is ordered, and when not, it is chaotic. Totally.

That raises an interesting question: How or when are we satisfied that we have explained something, or accounted for something? How many variables in the causal chain must we know. From which paradigm? Seems pretty arbitrary. hmmmm.....



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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #932794 - 10/04/02 08:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

1. Why do I have to "work in" free will into the equation? can you work it into ANY model of reality without invoking "special" forces at work? Free will is beyond order vs. chaos. I am only describing the physical universe, which is deterministic. Free will transcends the physical.

2. campatilism attempts to reconcile free will and determinism. I don't believe in "traditional" compatibilism. Matter is deterministic. If we were simply biological machines, we would also be deterministic.

3. hope? so many definitions...

4. If you were familiar with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, you would know that it describes the act of measuring matter, not an inherent property of matter.

It's interesting that you would cite a physical principle as an excuse to believe in free will. Is it because you know that the belief in free will is essentially an irrational belief. After all, you can't logically prove free will, with or without randomness. We all experience it directly, we don't question it. Like so many things, it is something we believe on faith and faith alone.

It sounds like your belief in free will is pretty strong. I also believe in free will. But I don't look to science to explain it because it never will. I believe what I experience directly.


Now let me ask you this: How does the uncertainty principle physically explain free will?



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932900 - 10/04/02 09:14 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Don't let my posting style dissuade you, I really want to know what you think. :smile:

Free will transcends the physical.
Sidestepping.

I don't believe in "traditional" compatibilism.
Well, I've expressed my views on the matter quite clearly... yet you have not.
Please, humor me with a concise but complete summary of YOUR views on free will.  I'm tired of one-liners that only allude to some great mass of information just beyond...

hope? so many definitions...
More sidestepping.  C'mon man, I want to know how hope can exist in a world that runs on fate.  Just a simple answer... no dictionary.com stuff...

If you were familiar with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, you would know that it describes the act of measuring matter, not an inherent property of matter.

Hmmm... .
I thought the HUP is about "the quantum-mechanical principle that the momentum and position of a particle cannot both be precisely determined at the same time"... sounds like matter to me.  But it is also about randomness (Shrodinger's cat).

Of course, we come to a head here... you take the String Theorists' reply here and say "no no no, that just APPEARS to be random... in actuality, it's quite ordered, we're just on such a short timescale [insert crappy anecdote about "ant time"]... randomness is just an illusion..." 
And then when I ask them, "How am I supposed to differentiate between illusion and reality if such fundamental concepts like randomness and free will are illusions that my puny, ape brain is deceived into thinking are real?  Why not just doubt everything? Boy, is this productive. *sarcasm*"

Well, we're at a stalemate here.  What next?
*Breaks into song and dance*
You say ILLUSORY... I say REALITY...
You say ORDER-OTA... and I say RANDOM-ATO...
Let's call the whole thing oooooff!
HEY!
*applause* 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #932996 - 10/04/02 10:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

sidestepping?

you couldn't have missed this:
"How does the uncertainty principle explain free will?"

I've expressed my views on the matter quite clearly... yet you have not.

"Matter is deterministic. If we were simply biological machines, we would also be deterministic."

clear enough?

now let me hear your views. clearly.

I want to know how hope can exist in a world that runs on fate

I never said the world runs on fate. I clearly stated that I believe in free will.

I thought the HUP is about "the quantum-mechanical principle that the momentum and position of a particle cannot both be precisely determined at the same time"... sounds like matter to me

"cannot both be precisely determined at the same time"
it cannot be measured...
Did you know that the HUP also states that the behavior of subatomic particles can be altered by the very act of observing it? hardly seems random.

you take the String Theorists' reply

no need to bring up string theory.



I would *really* like to hear your views on free will. How does it work? How does randomness explain free will? What is randomness?

You and I are not that different. We both believe in free will. We both believe it on faith.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #933062 - 10/04/02 10:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What I've percieved  by Sclorch Handey
*Free will
*Dirty Fractal Edge = Order tinged with randomness
*No God
*No aliens (that have visited us)
*No conspiracies (just insecure dumbasses looking to inflate their egos)
*No afterlife... not really sure, but I don't care as it won't change a damn thing HERE and NOW.

Shit... just got a phone call... the heathen in me tells me to stop typing because I can finish this tomorrow (wee hours of the morn).  I WILL get back to this.

Think about my "dirty fractal edge" before judging it... it's real nice. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #933111 - 10/04/02 10:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The HUP can explain free will because it shows that matter is NOT deterministic.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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