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OfflineBerkleeStu00
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Law & Chaos
    #925317 - 10/02/02 05:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What is man's obsession with structure and law? When I'm sober I find structure very satisfying, and comforting. When my desk is neat, it makes me happy because I know where everything is, and if I need something, I go right to it. When I dosed at Phil in Camden NJ this summer, I remember staring out to the waterfront (we had lawn tickets) and being just enthralled with how beautiful the bridge was. It was just swaying in the breeze with rainbow lights reflecting off of it.

However, when tripping I find myself having a hard time looking at uniform structure. It's hard for me to look at a wall with a uniform pattern, or at a checkered floor. But if I stare at the dancing clouds, I find it quite beautiful. Nature always ALWAYS seems to be the best setting for tripping. Maybe because it's wild and chaotic??

What books would anybody reccomend on this topic?

Steve


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #925431 - 10/02/02 05:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What is man's obsession with structure and law? When I'm sober I find structure very satisfying, and comforting.

I can honestly say that this barely applies to me.
I think I'm relatively organized. Of course, I worship the Lord Uncertainty and the Holy Spirit of Confusion...

However, I have observed many people who are pretty obsessive about organization. I think you hit the nail on the head with your second sentence though... order is comforting. Order makes us feel secure. I often wonder if their is a correlation between order and insecurity in people...

As for the "barely" part... I admit that when I go about certain tasks, I am quite organized (the bigger the task, the more organized I tend to be).


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #925479 - 10/02/02 06:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The order of nature, (a rainforest would be a prime example but i don't live near any to trip in them so I have to settle for desiduos)  is very soothing to me.  The order man has imposed on it is not. I don't like tripping in cities compared to a rural area, the trip is much different for me...  a city makes me tense, and leavs me craving an open field with large trees and fresh air. 
>"I find it quite beautiful. Nature always ALWAYS seems to be the best setting for tripping. Maybe because it's wild and chaotic??"
Yes, the chaos ends up being quite beautiful, doesn't it?  :smirk: 


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #925959 - 10/02/02 08:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I am more attracted to the chaotic form of organization nature seems to take, it knows what its doing, its got a system all figured out so it *is* organized, but in a beautiful, wild, random kind of way. Sometimes I appreciate organization, like when i'm in intellectual mode, but when i'm in nothing but spiritual mode i crave chaos. I'm getting back into intellectual mode this week because i just started school up again, but this is creative school- i'm doing recording arts, i get to create music. I'll have a balance of the organized (techincal) and the chaotic (creative, spiritual)

It's all beautiful in its own way.


Edited by NiamhNyx (10/02/02 08:48 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #927377 - 10/03/02 04:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

<---- Organized Chaos


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Shroomism]
    #927388 - 10/03/02 04:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

a desk will make it work


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: CleverName]
    #927390 - 10/03/02 04:47 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I was reffering to my avatar... but yeah  :grin: 


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Shroomism]
    #927398 - 10/03/02 04:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:grin: 


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #929514 - 10/03/02 10:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

There is an equivocation concerning the term 'chaos' in this thread. Nature is highly organized though the appearance of nature is not.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #931782 - 10/04/02 01:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nature is highly organized though the appearance of nature is not.

Ah, absolutism... your Greek is showing.

Many aspects of nature are highly organized though they appear not.

It's too bad there are now two opposing definitions for the term "chaos."


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: BerkleeStu00]
    #931940 - 10/04/02 02:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

order. chaos.

you are seeing conflict where none exist.

chaos does not oppose order. chaos is order.

the perfectly smooth surface of this desk is actually a chaotic jumble of molecules.
from space, the ocean is as smooth as glass, as you descend into the chaos, you see that it is a teeming quantum foam.
where raindrops fall at chaotic angles, each follows a path determined by factors too numerous to calculate, but it does follow an ordered path - we just can't predict it - hence we label it chaotic.
order and chaos is a contrived duality of the human mind. it is far from absolute truth. our binary brains often see two where there is one.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #931955 - 10/04/02 03:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'd definately have to agree. I'm almost obsessively organized when I'm sober, but when I'm tripping, it's like my brain scrambles. I love to watch my wood floor fold in chaotic patterns and other distortions of organized reality, but that can only go so far. Nature is definately the best setting for this reason. You never know what you're going to see. There could be clouds of all different shapes, the trees swaying in the wind, and on a clear night, it seems I can see each and every one of the trillions of stars in the universe.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932057 - 10/04/02 03:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

nice post! i definitely agree with you


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932712 - 10/04/02 07:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

but it does follow an ordered path - we just can't predict it - hence we label it chaotic

infidelGOD-
1. How does free will get worked into YOUR equation here?
2. Are you familiar with compatibilism?
3. What is hope?
4. Are you familiar with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932782 - 10/04/02 08:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah. It seems that any idea that has a direct opposite like "evil" or "order"- those things that are clearly completely relative to their opposites for them to make any sense- are better acknowledged as non-existent. It just breeds confusion and suffering. When we have found away to explain a phenomenon to our satisfaction, then it is ordered, and when not, it is chaotic. Totally.

That raises an interesting question: How or when are we satisfied that we have explained something, or accounted for something? How many variables in the causal chain must we know. From which paradigm? Seems pretty arbitrary. hmmmm.....



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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #932794 - 10/04/02 08:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

1. Why do I have to "work in" free will into the equation? can you work it into ANY model of reality without invoking "special" forces at work? Free will is beyond order vs. chaos. I am only describing the physical universe, which is deterministic. Free will transcends the physical.

2. campatilism attempts to reconcile free will and determinism. I don't believe in "traditional" compatibilism. Matter is deterministic. If we were simply biological machines, we would also be deterministic.

3. hope? so many definitions...

4. If you were familiar with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, you would know that it describes the act of measuring matter, not an inherent property of matter.

It's interesting that you would cite a physical principle as an excuse to believe in free will. Is it because you know that the belief in free will is essentially an irrational belief. After all, you can't logically prove free will, with or without randomness. We all experience it directly, we don't question it. Like so many things, it is something we believe on faith and faith alone.

It sounds like your belief in free will is pretty strong. I also believe in free will. But I don't look to science to explain it because it never will. I believe what I experience directly.


Now let me ask you this: How does the uncertainty principle physically explain free will?



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #932900 - 10/04/02 09:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Don't let my posting style dissuade you, I really want to know what you think. :smile:

Free will transcends the physical.
Sidestepping.

I don't believe in "traditional" compatibilism.
Well, I've expressed my views on the matter quite clearly... yet you have not.
Please, humor me with a concise but complete summary of YOUR views on free will.  I'm tired of one-liners that only allude to some great mass of information just beyond...

hope? so many definitions...
More sidestepping.  C'mon man, I want to know how hope can exist in a world that runs on fate.  Just a simple answer... no dictionary.com stuff...

If you were familiar with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, you would know that it describes the act of measuring matter, not an inherent property of matter.

Hmmm... .
I thought the HUP is about "the quantum-mechanical principle that the momentum and position of a particle cannot both be precisely determined at the same time"... sounds like matter to me.  But it is also about randomness (Shrodinger's cat).

Of course, we come to a head here... you take the String Theorists' reply here and say "no no no, that just APPEARS to be random... in actuality, it's quite ordered, we're just on such a short timescale [insert crappy anecdote about "ant time"]... randomness is just an illusion..." 
And then when I ask them, "How am I supposed to differentiate between illusion and reality if such fundamental concepts like randomness and free will are illusions that my puny, ape brain is deceived into thinking are real?  Why not just doubt everything? Boy, is this productive. *sarcasm*"

Well, we're at a stalemate here.  What next?
*Breaks into song and dance*
You say ILLUSORY... I say REALITY...
You say ORDER-OTA... and I say RANDOM-ATO...
Let's call the whole thing oooooff!
HEY!
*applause* 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #932996 - 10/04/02 10:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

sidestepping?

you couldn't have missed this:
"How does the uncertainty principle explain free will?"

I've expressed my views on the matter quite clearly... yet you have not.

"Matter is deterministic. If we were simply biological machines, we would also be deterministic."

clear enough?

now let me hear your views. clearly.

I want to know how hope can exist in a world that runs on fate

I never said the world runs on fate. I clearly stated that I believe in free will.

I thought the HUP is about "the quantum-mechanical principle that the momentum and position of a particle cannot both be precisely determined at the same time"... sounds like matter to me

"cannot both be precisely determined at the same time"
it cannot be measured...
Did you know that the HUP also states that the behavior of subatomic particles can be altered by the very act of observing it? hardly seems random.

you take the String Theorists' reply

no need to bring up string theory.



I would *really* like to hear your views on free will. How does it work? How does randomness explain free will? What is randomness?

You and I are not that different. We both believe in free will. We both believe it on faith.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #933062 - 10/04/02 10:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What I've percieved  by Sclorch Handey
*Free will
*Dirty Fractal Edge = Order tinged with randomness
*No God
*No aliens (that have visited us)
*No conspiracies (just insecure dumbasses looking to inflate their egos)
*No afterlife... not really sure, but I don't care as it won't change a damn thing HERE and NOW.

Shit... just got a phone call... the heathen in me tells me to stop typing because I can finish this tomorrow (wee hours of the morn).  I WILL get back to this.

Think about my "dirty fractal edge" before judging it... it's real nice. :wink: 


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #933111 - 10/04/02 10:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The HUP can explain free will because it shows that matter is NOT deterministic.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: chemkid]
    #933295 - 10/05/02 12:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The latter part of this thread contains some of the best dialogue in S&P. 

It was a joy to read!

But I still think each of you has your ontological predicates reversed. :wink:

Cheers, 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: chemkid]
    #933337 - 10/05/02 12:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The HUP can explain free will because it shows that matter is NOT deterministic.

you would have to assume that free will has a physical mechanism.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #933593 - 10/05/02 01:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

you would have to assume that free will has a physical mechanism.


Exactly! You hit the nail right on the head. No laws of physics, either Newtonian or chaotic or relativistic or quantum or string-related will ever be able to explain the existence of free will.

The RESULTS of free will -- the chain of effects set into motion by the exercise of free will -- follow the above physically mechanistic laws. But the initiating factor, the impulse that directs my fingers to type in a pattern known as English rather than a pattern known as Spanish, transcends those laws.

pinky


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #933835 - 10/05/02 04:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

infidelGOD-

Okay... now I know what you're saying. We're saying the same thing about free will, only in different ways (I think). Hmm....

You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability. Randomness initiates a change. By assuming formlessness (being adaptable), a being can continue to function/survive in spite of these changes. I think free will is a metafunction of our adaptive nature. It really isn't BASED in the physical plane... however the physical provides a foundation for free will. This is how I connect them. Take a computer for instance, you can have programs that run on top of programs and on and on... This is how I view our consciousness (minus the 1/0 aspect of the computer). We adapt... the key part of this ability to adapt is free will- the ability to truly make a choice.

Well... have at it.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
    #933841 - 10/05/02 04:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

he RESULTS of free will -- the chain of effects set into motion by the exercise of free will -- follow the above physically mechanistic laws.

This is where I would apply my "dirty fractal edge" treatment and say that there is random noise that changes things proportionally (many factors here). I think that the physical world is for the most part, cause and effect, but there's always a little "dirt" in there.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #934181 - 10/05/02 11:31 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This thread is great!
for the record I think the HUP is essentially your 'dirty fractal edge', Sclorch...

And now we have this:
"But the initiating factor, the impulse that directs my fingers to type in a pattern known as English rather than a pattern known as Spanish, transcends those laws."

An excellent point...but there's a problem, not everyone is exposed to two languages they're entire life. If one was raised bi-lingual from birth I can see how it would work.
A better example might be:

"But the initiating factor, the impulse that directs my free will to act in the pattern known as "Good", rather than a pattern known as "Evil", transcends those laws."

...just some thoughts.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #934228 - 10/05/02 11:51 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

An excellent point...but there's a problem, not everyone is exposed to two languages they're entire life. If one was raised bi-lingual from birth I can see how it would work.

That was just one of many possible concrete examples of the underlying fundamental concept -- my actions (be they the act of typing, speaking, dancing, eating... whatever) are neither random nor pre-determined -- they are purposeful and under my volitional control. They need not relate to anything as portentous as good or evil -- they may be concerned with such minutiae as how many peas I try to load on my fork at one time, or how many minutes I spend brushing my teeth tonight.

pinky


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
    #935006 - 10/05/02 07:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

are neither random nor pre-determined -- they are purposeful and under my volitional control

Exactly. I (and another student/friend) was trying to explain this sort of thing to my philosophy of mind professor a few years ago... it ended with him getting flustered and saying "let's just move on..." that poor deluded determinist. hehehe


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #935086 - 10/05/02 08:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ah... yet another textbook example of the abysmal state of university philosophy departments.

I have had many passions during my near-half-century on this planet, from racing cars to sleight of hand to windsurfing to backgammon, but the one enduring passion has always been philosophy. The problem is there is no way to make a living from it, short of becoming a professor of philosophy and spending one's life in academia in the company of pompous fools and callow undergrads. The caliber of the vast majority of philosophy professors is appalling.

pinky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #935093 - 10/05/02 08:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability

I figured it would be something like this. I've heard many people saying that randomness "leaves room" for free will. True. But what if physical randomness is an illusion? Then you would have to look beyond the physical plane to explain free will. I could see why a logical mind might have trouble doing this but the fact is, free will can't be explained by science. It is something we believe because we directly experience it, not because it makes scientific sense.

I understand your "dirty fractal edge" analogy, but as you've said, fractals aren't random, they can explain "randomness", they can become "chaotic" but the source of a fractal is not random - it is predetermined, yet indefinite - and that is precisely where my non-physical source of free will fits into my view of the deterministic physical world.

Glad to meet a fellow fractal lover  :smile:

As a purely academic excercise, let me ask you what is the difference between "true" free will and something that perfectly simulates free will?

Also, what is the difference between "true" randomness and something that perfectly simulates randomness (like a fractal)?

Maybe first you should tell me just what is the essence of randomness?
What makes something random?
 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #938279 - 10/07/02 02:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

As a purely academic excercise, let me ask you what is the difference between "true" free will and something that perfectly simulates free will?

Free will cannot be simulated... it's either there or it isn't.

Also, what is the difference between "true" randomness and something that perfectly simulates randomness (like a fractal)?

A fractal does not "perfectly simulate randomness". Is unpredictable... even on Monday mornings (this statement has nothing to do with the date).

Maybe first you should tell me just what is the essence of randomness?
What makes something random?


Unpredictability... patternlessness... no matter how it is viewed.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #939742 - 10/07/02 01:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Free will cannot be simulated... it's either there or it isn't

The second part of that statement is true. But free will CAN be simulated. In fact, if the universe is deterministic, then free will IS being simulated. We all experience it don't we? But I don't believe that we are "tricked" into believing in free will in a deterministic universe. If we experience something, the simplest explanation is that it exists.


Unpredictability... patternlessness... no matter how it is viewed

Now you know that's not what I meant. I don't want a definition of randomness, I want to know why is something random?
For example, you said that turbulence is random. Why is turbulence random?
details. details. and don't say "it just happens".


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940064 - 10/07/02 03:22 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Now you know that's not what I meant. I don't want a definition of randomness, I want to know why is something random?

Oooohh... hmm... I don't know.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940089 - 10/07/02 03:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Not an unusual answer for you but it is for most of us. That is the very paradigm of wisdom at times.

Thanks for the reminder.

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940305 - 10/07/02 04:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, randomness is a mystery. How would you scientifically verify that randomness exists? The HUP says that "There is an uncertainty associated with each measurement" and "whenever I make a measurement, I must disturb the system". It doesn't say that the thing being measured is uncertain, it says that the measurement is uncertain. We can't measure randomness, we can't prove it. So why do you believe it? Isn't it like saying that the soul is responsible for free will? Neither is provable.

My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source. Something that can't be verified. You said yourself "It really isn't BASED in the physical plane". The physical plane itself can't explain free will, so where does it come from? I don't know, but I experience it, so I believe it. It comes down to faith for me and I have no problem believing something on faith, I need not look elsewhere for an explanation.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940611 - 10/07/02 06:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your posts. You are level headed and a mystery.

Thanks for posting.

Cheers,


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940620 - 10/07/02 06:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source.

Correct. Free will acts ON the physical universe, but is not OF that universe -- at least not the standard scientific model of a four-dimensional universe. Therefore free will is a METAphysical phenomenon rather than a physical one. The very fact that free will exists leads one to conclude that there must be a fifth dimension -- the other four being length, breadth, height, and time.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
    #940625 - 10/07/02 06:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Graffiti spotted in a restroom at CalTech:

"Heisenberg might have been wrong"

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
    #940640 - 10/07/02 06:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940658 - 10/07/02 07:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'll agree that it is highly probable that neither free will nor determinism is provable.
(I don't know for sure, so I'll leave a little uncertainty in there)

My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source. Something that can't be verified. You said yourself "It really isn't BASED in the physical plane".

Not at all. Would you call a computer program metaphysical? I don't think it fits.
Just because something isn't static doesn't mean it is metaphysical.


The physical plane itself can't explain free will, so where does it come from? I don't know, but I experience it, so I believe it. It comes down to faith for me and I have no problem believing something on faith, I need not look elsewhere for an explanation.

For me... it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe.
I don't put faith in things/ideas that are contrary to the way they seem to be and/or those things/ideas that cannot be tested.


--------------------
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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #940759 - 10/07/02 07:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you  :smile:

you're quite level headed yourself  :grin:
 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940773 - 10/07/02 07:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Would you call a computer program metaphysical? I don't think it fits.
Just because something isn't static doesn't mean it is metaphysical.


No, a computer program operates according to physical laws. It is a predictable, ordered system. A computer program does not exhibit randomness or free will.

it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe

yeah but you have to have faith to believe that what you observe is what really is.

c'mon Sclorch, can't you admit that you believe certain things on faith? why is faith such a bad thing?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940810 - 10/07/02 07:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe
yeah but you have to have faith to believe that what you observe is what really is.

Who doesn't have faith in what they observe?
I mean, we can play with semantics here and apply faith to everything... you know damn well which connotation of 'faith' I'm trying to avoid.

c'mon Sclorch, can't you admit that you believe certain things on faith?

Faith in observation. Faith in uncertainty. Faith in thought. Faith in self.
That's about it.


why is faith such a bad thing?

Faith is, with few exceptions (see above), blind to reason.
Faith discourages doubt.
For the most part, doubt is virtuous as it encourages thinking.
I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.


--------------------
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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940830 - 10/07/02 07:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.



I have been accused of 'thinking too much.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #940869 - 10/07/02 07:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Who doesn't have faith in what they observe?

But if I observe God (or aliens for that matter), wouldn't you say that faith in that observation isn't logical? Isn't this a double standard?
Why is faith in the observation of free will valid, but faith in the observation of God unacceptable to the skeptic?

I'm not talking blind faith, and I'm not talking "faith in everything", so drop the semantics. ALL debates can be reduced to a semantic battle so lets not go there.

Faith is, with few exceptions (see above), blind to reason.
Faith discourages doubt.
For the most part, doubt is virtuous as it encourages thinking.
I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.


I agree, sort of. For me, faith only fills the gap that reason and science will never fill. So I see no conflict between faith and reason.

and no, thinking is not a bad thing, neither is faith.



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #940923 - 10/07/02 08:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

But if I observe God (or aliens for that matter), wouldn't you say that faith in that observation isn't logical? Isn't this a double standard?

Observing God? A big if...
It'd be more likely an interpretation of observations.

If I make an erroneous observation, I'll take note of it and look for the error.
For example: When a magician performs a feat, I do not believe it is magic... it is a trick and nothing more. However, when I was a child I most certainly attributed it to "magic".

I have made plenty erroneous observations in my life and damn near every one of them had a rational explanation (which I usually stumbled upon later).


--------------------
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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #941313 - 10/07/02 11:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Observing God? A big if...
It'd be more likely an interpretation of observations
If I make an erroneous observation, I'll take note of it and look for the error.


Couldn't the observation of free will also be an "erroneous observation"? Isn't that another big "if"?

Philosophically, the belief in free will and the belief in God are not that different. I'm not saying you should believe in God. But if you believe in free will, you must also be open to the possibility of the existence of other things "not based in the physical plane".

You can't have it both ways.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #941388 - 10/08/02 12:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You can't have it both ways.

No, but you try in your response to schlorch. If there is no free will, then he obviously is not free to decide that there is or isn't. No free will = no choice.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #941637 - 10/08/02 04:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Your produce alone has been worth the trip.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Swami]
    #942520 - 10/08/02 12:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Huh?

I'm not advocating determism here.

I think all of us here believe in free will. I'm just trying to get at Sclorch's justification for believing in something without any supporting evidence and how that conflicts with the skeptic's viewpoint.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #942529 - 10/08/02 12:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you Mr Mushrooms. And what a trip it's been!

We were so close this time around. But alas, the unseen center defies human comprehension.


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #943035 - 10/08/02 03:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'd forgotten, but I mean wow, your planet is really bright.


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OfflineCalen
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #943111 - 10/08/02 04:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Huh?

I'm not advocating determism here.

I think all of us here believe in free will. I'm just trying to get at Sclorch's justification for believing in something without any supporting evidence and how that conflicts with the skeptic's viewpoint.


Who are you to test Sclorch's faith and his own matrix? Morpheus? :wink:

Check your PM. 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Calen]
    #943586 - 10/08/02 07:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No, not THE Morpheus  :wink:

I'm not testing anybody's faith or beliefs, but is it too much to ask for consistency of belief?

Sclorch wanted to know what I thought, so I told him. I thought I should get it all out during my 2 week window of sobriety  :grin:

In any case, it's usually the skeptics that do all the "testing" of beliefs around here but we could all benefit from an examination of our basic beliefs.
 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #943882 - 10/08/02 09:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just trying to get at Sclorch's justification for believing in something without any supporting evidence

My supporting evidence is what I observe.  I observe free will (though I DO doubt it all the time...).  It doesn't seem illusory to me, therefore I have no reason to believe such a claim.  Furthermore, I think a belief in free will  is much healthier than a belief in determinism.

and how that conflicts with the skeptic's viewpoint.
When did I claim to subscribe to the skeptic's viewpoint?
I will acknowledge that I am often skeptical... but that only means I have the ability to doubt.  I've been falsely branded a skeptic.  That's why I'm always putting quotes around skeptic.... like this:  I am a "skeptic".  Duh! :wink:

In any case, it's usually the skeptics that do all the "testing" of beliefs around here
Careful.  Try this: "skeptics".

but we could all benefit from an examination of our basic beliefs.
This is true.   


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #945799 - 10/09/02 03:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You "observe" free will?

Please elaborate.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #946234 - 10/09/02 05:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Observation through experience.
I am not forced to do anything.  I rarely feel compelled to think or act.

jfk;lsadjfksdajfaf[j[jfi
Was that me proving my own ability to assert my will;kdjf; sdffuck you assholiofjsdl;fjl ????

I don't have Turret's syndrome... so, what was THAT ^^^?

I just fucking DID it.  That's all.  I chose.

*Tomorrow Never Knows by the Beatles is playing now... badass*

Anyways.  What do you want from me?
Most people (what... 7 billion-ish) would agree that we have free will.
To me, this is not the fallacy of appeal to common practice (or whatever fallacy it could be).  With numbers like that (cross-cultural too), I really can't see how someone could deny that we don't, at least, OBSERVE free will.

Whatever... this is just part of my "programming", right?
Well, you might be impressed with thought experiments like SUPERPARRY, but I'm not. :smirk: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #948137 - 10/10/02 04:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Observation through experience.
I am not forced to do anything. I rarely feel compelled to think or act.


Determinism is not contingent on 'feeling' one way or another.  That may be a component of the interpretation of soft determinism but it may be incorrect.  Determinism evidences itself by the causality of all things including humans.  Every thought, every action, every feeling that you have is predetermined long before you ever existed.  All of your past experiences combined with your DNA make you, you.  You have no more free will than a rock that 'acts' under the influence of gravity and just about as much choice.

I don't have Turret's syndrome... so, what was THAT ^^^?

It's Tourette's syndrome but that's neither here nor there.  That that you typed was the pure result from the DNA you possess combined with your past experiences.  Not only would you have acted that way when placed in this situation but a person with enoun information about you could have predicted it perfectly.  You could not ahve acted otherwise.

*Tomorrow Never Knows by the Beatles is playing now... badass*

Anyways. What do you want from me?
Most people (what... 7 billion-ish) would agree that we have free will.
To me, this is not the fallacy of appeal to common practice (or whatever fallacy it could be). With numbers like that (cross-cultural too), I really can't see how someone could deny that we don't, at least, OBSERVE free will.


The Beatles rock hard!  Or so my programming says.

The fallacy you are referring to is argumentum consensus gentium or argumentum ad populum.  Many people believe in God too.  It proves nothing, AND not all people agree we have free will.  No serious-minded determinist would ever concede that.

Whatever... this is just part of my "programming", right?
Well, you might be impressed with thought experiments like SUPERPARRY, but I'm not. :smirk:


Indeed.

Very little impresses me.

:smile:

Cheers, 


Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (10/10/02 04:24 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #949702 - 10/10/02 03:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That that you typed was the pure result from the DNA you possess combined with your past experiences. Not only would you have acted that way when placed in this situation but a person with enough (sp- :wink:) information about you could have predicted it perfectly. You could not have (typo- :wink:) acted otherwise.

I knew it... you're a compatibilist.  Ya fuckin' liar. :wink:

The compatibilist argument is a cop-out that makes garbage trucks seem to smell like fresh jasmine.  That might not be harsh enough...

I take it you're not a fan of existentialism... are ya?  I bet you've only skimmed through post-enlightenment philosophy.  Don't go looking in your encyclopedia of philosophy... you can't prove to me that you know it merely by regurgitating concepts or definitions. 

I'm calling you out.  I'm asking you to forget about Aristotle for ten minutes and focus on the dirty.  The dirty that gets shooed out every night in some sleazy club downtown when the houselights go on.  I'm talking about the dirty that coats the fingers of that angst-ridden teenager finding cool in a toilet stall between bells.  I'm talking about the dirty that floats in the air and coats the hair of every ghetto kid.  I'm talking about the dirty that's never rinsed off a martini glass.  I'm talking about the dirty that forces it's way out of a well-fingered upright bass' f-holes.  I'm talking about the dirty that can't really be talked about.  I'm talking about the dirty that must be experienced.  Yeah... that dirty.

When you understand that dirty, you can let go of theories and see the beast within.  The beast won't let you down... much.

No one is perfect... well, at least we're all perfectly imperfect.  There is no catch-all theory for life... but there is a catch-all mindset.  It can move in and out of all paradigms... all theories... all philosophies... all ideas... all thoughts... with the grace of a ballroom dancer.  It is limited only by a person's insecurity.

If only all this were taken to as unreferierbar...   


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #950130 - 10/10/02 06:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

THAT was extremely funny!

sniff sniff

All my powered nose has ever smelt is a slightly used handkerchief and some linen that had gotten musty because it wasn't properly rotated in the linen closet.

Of all the posts you have ever written I like this one more than most and more than any that I can directly call to memory.

Well done!

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #950302 - 10/10/02 06:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

AND you make me proud, damn proud if I may be so bold.

Sclorch, that was so moving, like truth personified!

I get it.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #951478 - 10/11/02 12:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Relax Sclorch, I'm not debating free will vs. determinism because we believe in the same thing. I just want to examine the belief system that led to that belief.

You obviously value your observations. There is no evidence for the existence of free will, but its existence doesn't conflict with any known physical law. So doesn't it just come down to direct experience?

Good, so would you say that you are open to the possibility that God exists?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
    #952431 - 10/11/02 09:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

There are always possibilities.

My problem lies in the dogma that surrounds such a God. Heaven for "good" people and hell for "bad" people... angry God or a compassionate God... prime mover or a guiding force (still here)... a holistic (all the energy in the universe, matter included) or some ethereal, intangible being... basis of morality?...

You see, with all the options available... and everybody claiming God is a different mix... Why should I even bother defining God? Since God hasn't made him/her/itself known to me and I have neither the want nor the need to just "have faith" and put all my trust in some being that I'm imagining is there (I have no evidence... only testimony from others). Besides, of all the people that believe in God (that I've encountered), I feel I have a much stronger grasp on morality, ethics, philosophy, spirituality, and reality than 99.999% of them (actually, all of them, but I'll leave it open).


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #952749 - 10/11/02 11:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Choices are illusions.

Once you make a choice you realize that you had no other choice due to the fact that you "chose" whatever it was that you "chose."

When somebody "chooses" something, and then later says it was their choice and that they COULD have done something else, they're lying. They couldn't have done anything else, because they've already done what they did.

This probably seems like drivel, but it makes perfect sense to me - nobody's really got "free will." Its all circumstance and brain-chemistry. Things just seem like choice the closer to the present they are. However, look way back in the past and tell me you really COULD have done something other than the things that you've done. You couldn't have, because you wouldn't be you. aww nevermind people hate determinists so I'll be quiet on that subject for now ;-)

Oh and regarding order and structure: It is necessary. When I look at nature I don't see chaos and disorder - I see much more HIGHLY-structured, precisely-calculated results of a system that is so far beyond common comprehension that it LOOKS like chaos and disorder. Its SOOOO well-organized and precise that it almost doesn't even look organized OR precise. Eventually we'll get close to nature with regards to highly-advanced methods of organization and structure - I'm already seeing it here on the internet and with computers in general - directory trees and things like that may seem chaotic to an alien, but to us humans.... "hey those are my files - see i've got all my whatever files in this folder organized in subfolders by date and numbered, and all my whichever data in here organized by these parameters"

My post keeps getting weirder and weirder, so I'll stop

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
weicuyneoirucghmlkghexqrmoiugrh,godsihglksdfjhlfkjh - I didn't chose to do that - I HAD to do it.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (10/11/02 11:19 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Strumpling]
    #952851 - 10/11/02 05:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This probably seems like drivel, but it makes perfect sense to me - nobody's really got "free will." Its all circumstance and brain-chemistry.

Hmmm... would you care to enlighten the entire field of cognitive science with your research that has the brain completely figured out?

Or maybe you just skimmed through all the posts above...
You either missed all that^^^ or you're intentionally ignoring them because all you care about is asserting your opinion rather than REALLY contributing to the thread.

And, by the way, you should take all my criticism personally... I was trying so hard to hurt your feelings. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #953078 - 10/11/02 07:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

smooch my ass I had to leave - sometimes reality rushes your forum-time; I'm sure you've run into that situation before.

I saw an interesting topic and had somethign to say about it yet I had to leave to go to work to make money to pay for an internet connection and so on....

Believe me I read everything when I can, but I was in a hurry and had to post some thoughts.

why are you winking at me? is that supposed to negate your attack?

edit #1 (addition):anyway when i get home from work i'll go through everything as i usually prefer to do and hopefully i'll notice why you're suddenly so pissed off and condscending towards me

edit #2 (addition): No respect for the newbs around here I see. Boy I feel so welcome here already.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (10/11/02 07:10 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #953082 - 10/11/02 07:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

My perception of hell is a life devoted to and living in fear, and heaven a life devoted to love.


--------------------


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Strumpling]
    #953314 - 10/11/02 09:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

edit #2 (addition): No respect for the newbs around here I see. Boy I feel so welcome here already.

I have little respect for those that jump in on a conversation without bothering to follow it from the start (it's not like the material is unavailable... all you have to do is scroll a little).

why are you winking at me? is that supposed to negate your attack?

No, it's supposed to indicate sarcasm... you figure it out.

Believe me I read everything when I can, but I was in a hurry and had to post some thoughts.

Yeah... it's best to rush through these things and blurt out your opinion without checking to see if someone already stated something similar.

Back to the topic now...
*hopes the bickering didn't kill the thread*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Strumpling]
    #953379 - 10/11/02 09:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I will welcome you graciously if you'll kiss my ring. :wink:

Seriously, I am glad that you jumped in when you did.  There is nothing wrong with that irregardless of what Sclorch says, provided you can swim. :wink:

Stick around, we need more determinists in this forum. :wink:

I have something in my eye.  Can you see it? :wink:

Cheers, :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #953382 - 10/11/02 09:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I feel I have a much stronger grasp on morality, ethics, philosophy, spirituality, and reality than 99.999% of them (actually, all of them, but I'll leave it open).

Didn't know you felt that way.  I would too but then again, I don't rely on feelings. :wink:

Cheers, :wink:

All this winking is making my eye strain. :wink: 


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #953387 - 10/11/02 09:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sclorch, my buddy, my pal, relax....loosen up alittle bit.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #953442 - 10/11/02 10:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

sorry for making a whole reply just to laugh but......

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #953682 - 10/12/02 12:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bahahah

The way you write and express yourself was already determined from the moment you registered an account + username here, Sclorch. that nanosecond of gibberish you wrote was still the notable character this forum knows you by. From my observations, the way you write has a vibrant color of creativity and emotional appeal. Ya got the flow, yo! :P

So telling, I see that link between your writing style and the obvious fact displayed on my screen. I am so tempted to toss lighted TNT sticks into the discussion but..... I....... must........resist.

*phew


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Calen]
    #954355 - 10/12/02 03:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmm... if my screenname were green, I bet a different tune would be sung.
Anyways...

So telling, I see that link between your writing style and the obvious fact displayed on my screen. I am so tempted to toss lighted TNT sticks into the discussion but..... I....... must........resist.

Actually, I wouldn't mind it much if you did... as long as you didn't disrupt the (original) flow.  I love a good argument (with intelligent opposition... like what infidelGOD brings to the table).  Holding back only hurts us all. 
Fuckin' let me have it man...
Yeah. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
    #955427 - 10/12/02 06:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmm... if my screenname were green, I bet a different tune would be sung.

Never, ever ever, make that assumption.

Here are two things required by all moderators by the members they moderate.

1. Never moderate.

2. Never have a viewpoint that disagrees with theirs.

Do that, and you have it made.

Cheers,


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Law & Chaos [Re: ]
    #955605 - 10/12/02 08:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

wow this thread got really stupid really quick.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Strumpling]
    #955635 - 10/12/02 08:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You'll have that.

Cheers,


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