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Anonymous
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 Re: Law & Chaos  [Re: chemkid]
#933295 - 10/04/02 10:21 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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The latter part of this thread contains some of the best dialogue in S&P.
It was a joy to read!
But I still think each of you has your ontological predicates reversed. 
Cheers,
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 infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: chemkid]
#933337 - 10/04/02 10:36 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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The HUP can explain free will because it shows that matter is NOT deterministic.
you would have to assume that free will has a physical mechanism.
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 Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#933593 - 10/04/02 11:54 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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you would have to assume that free will has a physical mechanism.
Exactly! You hit the nail right on the head. No laws of physics, either Newtonian or chaotic or relativistic or quantum or string-related will ever be able to explain the existence of free will.
The RESULTS of free will -- the chain of effects set into motion by the exercise of free will -- follow the above physically mechanistic laws. But the initiating factor, the impulse that directs my fingers to type in a pattern known as English rather than a pattern known as Spanish, transcends those laws.
pinky
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#933835 - 10/05/02 02:42 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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infidelGOD-
Okay... now I know what you're saying. We're saying the same thing about free will, only in different ways (I think). Hmm....
You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability. Randomness initiates a change. By assuming formlessness (being adaptable), a being can continue to function/survive in spite of these changes. I think free will is a metafunction of our adaptive nature. It really isn't BASED in the physical plane... however the physical provides a foundation for free will. This is how I connect them. Take a computer for instance, you can have programs that run on top of programs and on and on... This is how I view our consciousness (minus the 1/0 aspect of the computer). We adapt... the key part of this ability to adapt is free will- the ability to truly make a choice.
Well... have at it.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
#933841 - 10/05/02 02:59 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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he RESULTS of free will -- the chain of effects set into motion by the exercise of free will -- follow the above physically mechanistic laws.
This is where I would apply my "dirty fractal edge" treatment and say that there is random noise that changes things proportionally (many factors here). I think that the physical world is for the most part, cause and effect, but there's always a little "dirt" in there.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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dee_N_ae
\/\/¡†¢h |-|øµ§³ ¢å†
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 2,473
Loc: The Shadow of Neptune
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
#934181 - 10/05/02 09:31 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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This thread is great!
for the record I think the HUP is essentially your 'dirty fractal edge', Sclorch...
And now we have this:
"But the initiating factor, the impulse that directs my fingers to type in a pattern known as English rather than a pattern known as Spanish, transcends those laws."
An excellent point...but there's a problem, not everyone is exposed to two languages they're entire life. If one was raised bi-lingual from birth I can see how it would work.
A better example might be:
"But the initiating factor, the impulse that directs my free will to act in the pattern known as "Good", rather than a pattern known as "Evil", transcends those laws."
...just some thoughts.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: dee_N_ae]
#934228 - 10/05/02 09:51 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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An excellent point...but there's a problem, not everyone is exposed to two languages they're entire life. If one was raised bi-lingual from birth I can see how it would work.
That was just one of many possible concrete examples of the underlying fundamental concept -- my actions (be they the act of typing, speaking, dancing, eating... whatever) are neither random nor pre-determined -- they are purposeful and under my volitional control. They need not relate to anything as portentous as good or evil -- they may be concerned with such minutiae as how many peas I try to load on my fork at one time, or how many minutes I spend brushing my teeth tonight.
pinky
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
#935006 - 10/05/02 05:20 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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are neither random nor pre-determined -- they are purposeful and under my volitional control
Exactly. I (and another student/friend) was trying to explain this sort of thing to my philosophy of mind professor a few years ago... it ended with him getting flustered and saying "let's just move on..." that poor deluded determinist. hehehe
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
#935086 - 10/05/02 06:18 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ah... yet another textbook example of the abysmal state of university philosophy departments.
I have had many passions during my near-half-century on this planet, from racing cars to sleight of hand to windsurfing to backgammon, but the one enduring passion has always been philosophy. The problem is there is no way to make a living from it, short of becoming a professor of philosophy and spending one's life in academia in the company of pompous fools and callow undergrads. The caliber of the vast majority of philosophy professors is appalling.
pinky
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
#935093 - 10/05/02 06:33 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability
I figured it would be something like this. I've heard many people saying that randomness "leaves room" for free will. True. But what if physical randomness is an illusion? Then you would have to look beyond the physical plane to explain free will. I could see why a logical mind might have trouble doing this but the fact is, free will can't be explained by science. It is something we believe because we directly experience it, not because it makes scientific sense.
I understand your "dirty fractal edge" analogy, but as you've said, fractals aren't random, they can explain "randomness", they can become "chaotic" but the source of a fractal is not random - it is predetermined, yet indefinite - and that is precisely where my non-physical source of free will fits into my view of the deterministic physical world.
Glad to meet a fellow fractal lover 
As a purely academic excercise, let me ask you what is the difference between "true" free will and something that perfectly simulates free will?
Also, what is the difference between "true" randomness and something that perfectly simulates randomness (like a fractal)?
Maybe first you should tell me just what is the essence of randomness?
What makes something random?
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Sclorch
Clyster
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#938279 - 10/07/02 12:02 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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As a purely academic excercise, let me ask you what is the difference between "true" free will and something that perfectly simulates free will?
Free will cannot be simulated... it's either there or it isn't.
Also, what is the difference between "true" randomness and something that perfectly simulates randomness (like a fractal)?
A fractal does not "perfectly simulate randomness". Is unpredictable... even on Monday mornings (this statement has nothing to do with the date).
Maybe first you should tell me just what is the essence of randomness?
What makes something random?
Unpredictability... patternlessness... no matter how it is viewed.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
#939742 - 10/07/02 11:43 AM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Free will cannot be simulated... it's either there or it isn't
The second part of that statement is true. But free will CAN be simulated. In fact, if the universe is deterministic, then free will IS being simulated. We all experience it don't we? But I don't believe that we are "tricked" into believing in free will in a deterministic universe. If we experience something, the simplest explanation is that it exists.
Unpredictability... patternlessness... no matter how it is viewed
Now you know that's not what I meant. I don't want a definition of randomness, I want to know why is something random?
For example, you said that turbulence is random. Why is turbulence random?
details. details. and don't say "it just happens".
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#940064 - 10/07/02 01:22 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Now you know that's not what I meant. I don't want a definition of randomness, I want to know why is something random?
Oooohh... hmm... I don't know.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
#940089 - 10/07/02 01:30 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not an unusual answer for you but it is for most of us. That is the very paradigm of wisdom at times.
Thanks for the reminder.
Cheers,
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Sclorch]
#940305 - 10/07/02 02:43 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, randomness is a mystery. How would you scientifically verify that randomness exists? The HUP says that "There is an uncertainty associated with each measurement" and "whenever I make a measurement, I must disturb the system". It doesn't say that the thing being measured is uncertain, it says that the measurement is uncertain. We can't measure randomness, we can't prove it. So why do you believe it? Isn't it like saying that the soul is responsible for free will? Neither is provable.
My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source. Something that can't be verified. You said yourself "It really isn't BASED in the physical plane". The physical plane itself can't explain free will, so where does it come from? I don't know, but I experience it, so I believe it. It comes down to faith for me and I have no problem believing something on faith, I need not look elsewhere for an explanation.
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Anonymous
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#940611 - 10/07/02 04:43 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your posts. You are level headed and a mystery.
Thanks for posting.
Cheers,
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#940620 - 10/07/02 04:50 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source.
Correct. Free will acts ON the physical universe, but is not OF that universe -- at least not the standard scientific model of a four-dimensional universe. Therefore free will is a METAphysical phenomenon rather than a physical one. The very fact that free will exists leads one to conclude that there must be a fifth dimension -- the other four being length, breadth, height, and time.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
#940625 - 10/07/02 04:52 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Graffiti spotted in a restroom at CalTech:
"Heisenberg might have been wrong"
pinky
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Anonymous
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: Phred]
#940640 - 10/07/02 04:58 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Law & Chaos [Re: infidelGOD]
#940658 - 10/07/02 05:03 PM (22 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'll agree that it is highly probable that neither free will nor determinism is provable.
(I don't know for sure, so I'll leave a little uncertainty in there)
My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source. Something that can't be verified. You said yourself "It really isn't BASED in the physical plane".
Not at all. Would you call a computer program metaphysical? I don't think it fits.
Just because something isn't static doesn't mean it is metaphysical.
The physical plane itself can't explain free will, so where does it come from? I don't know, but I experience it, so I believe it. It comes down to faith for me and I have no problem believing something on faith, I need not look elsewhere for an explanation.
For me... it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe.
I don't put faith in things/ideas that are contrary to the way they seem to be and/or those things/ideas that cannot be tested.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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