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Shop: Original Sensible Seeds High THC Strains   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849001 -

The superstructure is merely so large that the human mind cannot grasp it. You are an ant standing at the base of the Empire State Building.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849008 -

Well, the problem with pure chaos in a universe chaos is infinite, but is applied to a finite states (matter and energy.) The time these go on is, presumably, infinite, however. Therefore, if we represent matter by numbers going on for an infinite time, then there is only so many possibilities these numbers (matter) can take before they need to start repeating themselves, first in segments and then, finally, if you go on for infinite, completely repeating themselves. It is mathematics; take every possible 5 number strain using our traditional 10 numbers (0-9), and now take every possible order each of these 5 number strains can be in. Now continue to repeat this, and it is inevitable that it will have to repeat itself, due to chaos, which has the potential of infinity, being used with finite particles and energy.

Of course, this is under the assumption that the matter in the universe is finite, which it seems it must be. If somehow there were infinite matter, well, that's mostly impossible to comprehend, infinite matter for infinite time, and while it is possible it will repeat, it is not inevitable

Chaos is therefore superior, as chaos gives rise to order. Just as the entire universe is chaos on every basic level, it contains segments of order on every basic level, which otherwise without, it is doubtful we would exist


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849504 -

can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?
one example will do....
chaos is a conclusion of one's limited perception. just cos the numbers get too big or complex for our brains, doesn't make it chaos.
scientists have tried for years to create true random number generators or random noise sources, for practical purposes they have succeeded in that the repetition rate is in milleniums. but on a universal scale, a few thousand years is nothing.

saying chaos is superior to order is like saying confusion is better than comprehension.
burn me  :sun:

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2849611 -

can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?

Easy: measuring the spin axis of a photon. The resulting value is one of the truely random aspects of nature, as there is no way to accurately predict the value prior to measuring.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849625 -

I am not a physicist, but I beleive much of quantum mechanics relies on the complete randomness of nature...correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849645 -

It's not that it (quantum mechanics) relies on randomness...so much as it predicts randomness.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849652 -

As I said I am NOT a physicist, but I consider myself well read. My wording is often very imprecise.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849786 -

Quote:
there is no way to accurately predict the value prior to measuring.


that does not make it chaotic, there are many things we cannot predict, simply the because the maths involved is beyond our ken.
and again, just because scientists are unable to recognize nor measure the forces affecting and/or causing the photon's spin does not make it chaotic. but there is vibration (spin) why would this be subject to a different set of physical laws?

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2849799 -

No one said it WAS subject to a different set of laws...but realize that there is a LARGE separation between the microscopic quantum-mechanical world and our macroscopic existence.

Quantum mechanics is the most accurate and successful theory ever created by human beings. We would not be here right now, posting this discussion on a computer and internet, without the amazing predictive power of quantum mechanics. Period.

That being said: randomness is what quantum mechanics predicts at the most fundamental levels of nature.

And yes, our inability to predict something doesn't make the thing itself chaotic...but it certainly makes the measured result chaotic :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849834 -

Quote:
And yes, our inability to predict something doesn't make the thing itself chaotic...but it certainly makes the measured result chaotic


thats what i wanted to hear.
thanx trendal.
so chaos does not exist in nature, only when we try to measure or comprehend some aspect of it?

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2849860 -

so chaos does not exist in nature, only when we try to measure or comprehend some aspect of it?

The jury is still out on that one. The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics suggests that it is nature itself that is random...not just our measurement of it. There are other interpretations...but this is the most common one in physics today because it is the one that stands up to experimental evidence.

Einstein fought for much of his life to disprove the Copenhagen Interpretation. He has a famous quote on the subject: "God does not play dice". Time after time, however, he was proven wrong by experimental evidence. In some cases what he proposed as disproof of the Copenhagen Interpretation actually turned into even stronger proof FOR it!

Many experiments have been proposed and carried out in hopes of proving one way or the other if nature itself is random or just our measuring of it....yet none has ever shown nature to be anything but random.

So, the possibility remains that nature is not random at it's most fundamental levels...but at this point it should be considered highly unlikely.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849878 -

I got a friend with a PHD in physics...you talk a lot like him. You got schooling in this? Just wondering.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849879 -

If anyone wants some good reading on the subject of quantum uncertainty and the Copenhagen Interpretation, check this site out: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849909 -

No formal schooling in physics (computer science was my major in University, before I left), but physics has been my great love as far back as I can remember. I was 4 or 5 when I started reading physics books for "fun", I think :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849934 -

I am a computer science(programming) major. Completed last year. Go back if you like Physics you seem to know your shit. This is off topic, but if your a computer nerd why you got the Steve Balmer video going on? He is merely a marketing guy for a dying company.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849946 -

Have you seen that video? It's probably one of the funniest displays of geekiness gone awry I've ever seen! :lol:

M$ can crash and burn, and I'll be happy to see it go. Though I am a windoze kiddie :smirk:

And now: back to your regularly scheduled S&P programming!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849968 -

Yeah, that video is a sight I have seen it before. Balmer is a true dork. One last note though, try Debian Linux or FreeBSD, you wont go back. Now back to the subject of chaos...

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849980 -

I use slackware or knoppix (debian), when I'm using linux :wink:
Didn't like BSD too much, though.

Back to chaos: the more I learn in this life, the more convinced I am that our universe operates on randomness/chaos at it's most fundamental levels (at least in part). This chaos is not as readily apparent on our macroscopic levels because it gets "smeared out" as you zoom out of the microscopic.

I think that we still see a form of macroscopic chaos, though, because the macroscopic is based on the microscopic.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849994 -

Slack is good...

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849998 -

CHAOS ORDER = REACH DOORS

Does that have any significance?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Shop: Original Sensible Seeds High THC Strains   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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