Icelander said:

The brain it seems acts as a filter on chaos. Why? So we can experience physical reality without going out of our nut.(tonal)

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Droz said:

You are definetly trying to make sense of what i said, for you have no clue what chaos is, you are trying to bring order from something that wasn't even chaotic, chaos is well known when one does not have to read it has to think before it acts.

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Actually, both "chaos" and "order" are both creations of our own mind, as they both relate to our understanding of that which we decide is chaotic or orderly.

Existance itself simply is. It isn't chaos. It wasn't chaos before humans started perceiving it. Chaos is the result of our observing a system but not comprehending the mechanics from which the system arises. It would be more correct to state that "In the beginning, there was Order", as it should remain obvious that the system is as it is now as a result of specific means, that there are mechanics that gave rise to it.

Yet the system itself simply is as it is. No order and especially no chaos - sorry, my friend.


Peace.

headset said:

[Basically, i fully agree chaos is natures way of creation, and everything in nature follows it without question - and its only with the formation of our ego's and hyperdeveloped mind that we've created systems which betray the eternal laws of the universe and we now blindly take for granted.

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Chaos isn't nature's way of creation. Nature's way of creation is orderly in that it has specific mechanics by which it creates. Cause and effect, fundamental scientific laws, etc. etc. etc. Chaos is merely the result of our failure to take into consideration all variables and aspects of the system which we are observing.

Is the innerworkings of our atmosphere and its weather patterns chaos? Does it not have order? Is it chaos when the butterfly flaps its wings and a tsunami strikes on the other side of the globe? Of course not. It is only chaos from our limited perspective that cannot take into account the vast amount of variables within the atmosphere and the series in which they interact. There certainly is an order to the weather's occurence, and the fact that, even though we cannot create a perfect model and understanding of the atmosphere, we can use a generalized, more limited model to make general, limited predictions is evidence towards that.

Let us not take the failings and limitations of our own perspective and thus prescribe the universe as being chaotic and without order. That would be sort of ignorant of us, now wouldn't it?


Peace.

headset said:

You missed the point fireworks_god: i said "through chaos stems all order" and its quite clear to me that there is order in the examples you provided.

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Quote:

Granted, chaos is just our way of perceiving it - its how we communicate it.

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It may be some people's way of perceiving it, but the fact that their perception of reality does not reflect reality as it truly exists is to be noted and considered. Chaos as a mathematical term, by the way, a reference to a dynamic system whose current state of interaction has a necessary dependance on the system's initial starting conditions, would definitely reflect the universe as I have come to understand it.

However, considering the nature of the original post and the manner in which the term "chaos" was being offset by order, it is rather suggestive that this was not the type of chaos being discussed. This remains obvious, as the description of "chaos" originating from mathematics implies order. This "chaos" is order, simply a type of order.

Quote:

I was just saying that sometimes i feel the mechanisms of order within my own psyche, and in order to *break the mold* so to speak and achieve freedom i think abandoning rationalization and intuition may be beneficial in the big picture.

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I do not comprehend how abandoning your rational thought processes and your intuition (which has originated from your direct experience of reality) would be in any way beneficial in this manner. All we understand of the nature of reality and the development of ourselves is from this past experience and the thought processes that have arisen as a result.

It is impossible to deny this or to abandon it. To refer to this mathematical definition of chaos that I just invoked, who we are and our position in reality (the only position from which we can perceive and understand reality, naturally ) is sensitively dependant on the initial starting conditions of this system known as the universe (which we are an aspect of) and the progression of interaction from those starting conditions.

It is, of course, entirely possible to refine, modify, change, and evolve our thought processes, in order to experience reality differerently, which would then alter our intuition. We are always changing as a result of our state of constant interaction within our universe anyways.

Pertaining to your mention of freedom, I would need to inquire as to what it is that you seek freedom from.


Peace.

Huehuecoyotl said:

Science seems to indicate that all there has ever been or will be is chaos.

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Oh really? How does science seem to indicate this, and which manner are you using the term "chaos" in?


Peace.

fireworks_god said:

Pertaining to your mention of freedom, I would need to inquire as to what it is that you seek freedom from.

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Icelander said:

I like and still am fascinated with Don Juans terms tonal and nagual. The tonal being the island inside ourselves which creates order. The nagual is where everything we cannot know is contained. The nagual is endless. But surprise!  So is the tonal.

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I am not more than generally aware of Don Juan's concept and its "tonal" and "nagual"; however, I find it interesting to run with this (based exclusively as you have presented it as) into my own dimension and state that tonal would exist as a holographic mirror that reflects nagual (thus being endless as well ), and also that this holographic mirror distinguishes itself from nagual in order to refine and develop itself to construct itself as the reflection of nagual.

It's like taking a mirror and attaching a powerful computer with no limitations or boundaries on what its programming consists of or as (thus giving it the potential to reflect nagual in totality) in order to understand the reflection off of the mirror. Most notable is that, at this point of intersection/interaction between the mirror and the computer is a tightly coiled spatial dimension node (string theory - The Elegant Universe) that observes and experiences the state of a distinct system programming itself according to the understanding it develops from analyzing the reflection of the mirror in order to further refine itself in order to fully represent that reality being reflected by the mirror in a holographic format. ( Not sure where that came from. ) From a survivalist's point of view, this mechanism (which I will now refer to the mind, to be blunt ) and its progress towards more fully understanding and thus reflecting the reflection of the mirror (reality, for those who are not grasping what I am not very skillfully expressing ) would thus benefit the interested parties involved with the mechanism by more fully equipping them with that which is necessary to navigate reality itself and to continue its state of survival and that of its genetic code. (Mentioning survival and evolution in this regard always keeps a realistic point of view in dealing with this concept )

I'm not used to representing such an idea in such a manner as I usually don't approach my current understanding from such a perspective (rather that I haven't expressed such ideas that I am only just exploring, before I receive my own consenus and analysis of the matter, in a really fucking long time in this forum - I've decided to grow and change in display of ya'll - exhibitionist! ), so if ya'll don't grok, it's because i'm insane and I myself don't grok.

How's it going, Ice man?


(Side note: I decided as an afterthought to refer to these concepts of Don Juan that you referred to in such a manner, to use an example: "and state that tonal would exist as a holographic mirror that reflects nagual" as opposed to this manner: "and state that the tonal would exist as a holographic mirror that reflects the nagual" out of ironic respect for the ancient culture in "Don Juan's" imagination, as they would hypothetically use such words without the definite article "the", being primitive and not so flowingly expressive. )

Also, I would like to say that, since I mentioned the tightly coiled spatial dimensions existing as a Calub-Yai shape as I understood it from the string theory book I referred to, I would also liken the intersection/interaction between the computer and the mirror as being the relationship between the space and time dimensions. Or something (I am not a physics student, teacher, or grand wizard master, so please don't condemn me and throw rocks at me).


Peace.

headset said:

The order that i feel controls my freewill.

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Allow your order to become open and receptive to the flow and the present moment. Then your order will naturally accept your freewill and will not restrict you or control you from being completely free to express it as you wish to (leave that to society and other's concrete sense of "order" ).




Peace.

Quote:

HERE FOLLOWS SOME PSYCHO-METAPHYSICS.
If you are not hot for philosophy, best just to skip it.

The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.

With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.

We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids.

A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.

Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.

The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.

The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

Reality is the original Rorschach.

Verily! So much for all that.

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Huehuecoyotl said:

I was refering to quantum theory.

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Even though quantam theory has within itself an established Order, regardless of whether or not we comprehend and are aware of that order?

Chaos simply doesn't seem to apply to quantam theory in that sense, and the only definition of chaos having any relation to order implies an intricate, complex sense of order itself. Not only that, but "chaos" would not be necessary to be used as a term in this sense as "dynamic" pretty much stands on its own ground and accurately represents the concept on its own.

Sorry, no chaos.


Peace.

Icelander said:

Yes indeed you do run.

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I simply took it as an oppurtunity to sping forth into my own dimension of conceptual focus at the moment as a result of the uniquely heightened state of awareness that I was experiencing yesterday.

Quote:

My reading of string theory and quantum physics was awhile ago and I would have trouble keeping up with huge mind like yours, so for now I won't.

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My reading of string theory and quantam physics (as represented in the book The Elegant Universe), was perhaps more recent, but it wasn't as though I was fully focused upon forming a deep understanding as it was presented. I read the book in a much more casual sense and the views I have formed of the ideas and concepts presented are probably not accurate representations of the concepts themselves as understood by physics masters (i.e., Trendal ), who intimately interact with and focus on the concepts and even hold understanding of the nature of the mathematics of the concepts.

The only focused areas of study that I apply myself in are musikk, retail, and my philosophical/spiritual understanding and my realization, expression, and experience in my conscious state of being - developing the self, experiencing life and applying myself in it, to raise the level of my consciousness. To be aware, to be (in the present moment, naturally).

Essentially, I'm not studied in the scholastic, scientific sense, although I have definitely greatly benefited from the education I have received (as a result of more effort from myself than the system applying the education ). In fact, I dropped out of high school in order to focus on the start of my path as a musician.

Quote:

Don Juans definition of Tonal is a separate condition that exists independently of the human being. It is a condition of the Universe at large. Order, unimaginable order that continues on forever, into ever more complex systems.

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The universe, the creation, the existance.

- Also, I wouldn't necessarily state that it exists independantly of the system known as the human being, as the human being is an aspect of this "seperate" condition. It is definitely distinct and not limited to the human being; however, the human being is as much seperate from this condition as the kidney is seperate from the human being's physical body.

Quote:

It's expression originates in the nagual and creates the conditions for the experience of mind and thought. These are mailable and can be effected by conditions arising within the nagual.(creativity) All creativity arises within the nagual.

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The tao, the spirit, consciousness.

Eh?


Peace.

Moonshoe said:

Fireworks god: nice thoughts, you have a nobel mind. But in this case, you elude my comprehension somewhat.

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It was at least partially (;)) due to the fact that I was eluding my own comprehension in the sense that I was simply openly exploring and sharing whatever thoughts and ideas arose as they did within my mind. Basically, I was very altered and I was lost in my own insanity.

I think we've all been there.

rwilber said:

In the beginning there was Me. everything was perfect until the me decided that its not a lot fun just sitting around doing nothing forever. soo i emploded. forever no longer existed because soon
neither would I. and if it did its wasn't my concern.

soo now,... instead of me, than the I, came the we.

and

Humpty Dumpty

sat on a wall,

Humpty Dumpty

had a great fall.

All the king?s horses,

And all the king?s men,

Couldn?t put Humpty

together again.

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justAkid said:

How does Consciousness arise from chaos?

Or maybe the better question is:

How does Consciousness arise in chaos?

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