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OfflineDoctorJ
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Order or Chaos?
    #2848511 - 07/01/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Imagine if you will a sequence of random numbers one million digits long.

Now, in this sequence of numbers, the subsequence '0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9' is bound to come up. Chaos can contain pockets of order. Chaos does not rule out some order.

Conversly, an ordered sequence of numbers would not be allowed to have any chaotic number subsequences in it; by definition, order cannot include chaos. Chaos can contain order, but order cannot contain chaos. For this reason, I believe that chaos is superior to order.

This is one of the reasons why I believe the totality of all things is fundamentally chaotic. Although one may find himself existing in a pocket of order, he cannot be sure that that pocket of order is anecdotal, the result of chance. His perspective from a position of order may blind him to the intrinsic chaos of the universe.

The universe does not make sense. Man tries in vain to make sense of the universe.

Although the events of space and time may happen in a logical fashion, the source of space and time is the potential of the infinite. I do not believe that this can be rationally understood. Thats why things are usually understood after the fact. There is no meaning to the things that happen in our universe. We simply assign meaning to these events post hoc.

anyway, I'm stoned and this is what I'm thinkin about. Flame on.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848528 - 07/01/04 07:26 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I believe that order and chaos are two parts of the same whole - balance

I disagree with you on the point that chaos cannot come of order. However, when I am thinking of chaos and order, I am usually thinking about solar systems, galaxies, black holes, atoms.. things of that nature. The universe is like organized chaos in my eyes.

As above so below, or something to that effect

anyway I'm just stoned and streaming consciousness. Flame on!


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848539 - 07/01/04 07:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'm thinking about stellar evolution too.

specifically what exactly caused the density fluctuations in the initial hydrogen clouds which eventually collapsed to form the first massive stars?

If the universe were intrinsically ordered would not the hydrogen been lined up in neat little rows and columns? It took a random seed for gravity to do its work of turning a singularitry into a diverse universe.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848552 - 07/01/04 07:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I dunno, but I would wager that fluctuation was caused by the need to evolve.. which both order and chaos can play roles in.


If the universe were intrinsically ordered would not the hydrogen been lined up in neat little rows and columns? It took a random seed for gravity to do its work of turning a singularitry into a diverse universe.


I see your point and I agree. What I'm thinking is that somehow, order and chaos are a delicate balance, they are always counteracting each other.. I think that the same forces or intent behind that order or chaos responsible for the formation of galaxies is also active in every aspect of our lives.

Maybe there is method to the madness, and maybe we don't fully understand true "order". When I think of order I think of a tree.. not rules of society.

So I don't know where I'm going with any of this.. I think that chaos is the force which keeps order on it's toes, thus perpetuating evolution.. and likewise order attempts to assimilate chaos... and somehow in this process there is a perfect balance which in the end is ultimately geared towards expansion and evolution by some obscure or very obvious means.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848559 - 07/01/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I understand and completely agree with what you are saying.

however, if someone were to put a gun to my head and tell me that my life depended upon the correctness of my answer to the question of whether the universe is fundamentallt ordered or fundamentally chaotic, I would definitely say that chaos is more the underlying force of the universe than order. Order is like a slave to chaos. IMO

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848569 - 07/01/04 07:45 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Order is like a slave to chaos

hmm perhaps. Or it could be the other way around.. what a paradigm buster that would be!

I would probably say that chaos and order are dependent on one another. Why, I don't know. Because that's the way it is?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848572 - 07/01/04 07:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

semantically they are dependant but language and reality are two very different things

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848581 - 07/01/04 07:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

thank god for that


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2848608 - 07/01/04 07:56 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848750 - 07/01/04 08:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Chaos can contain order, but order cannot contain chaos.  For this reason, I believe that chaos is superior to order.




Shitty cocaine can contain impurities, but does that means it's superior to cocaine with less impurities?  Nah, we only want the good stuff.  Order is chaos refined.

:smile:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2848785 - 07/01/04 08:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

if the structure of the universe were strictly ordered, cocaine probably wouldn't even exist at all. not to mention stars, planets, black holes, quasars, and all the other shit we haven't even seen yet.

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848812 - 07/01/04 08:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Strictly ordered universe?
I have no idea what would or would not exist in those circumstances. None of us do. There's no such thing as absolute order. There's definitely chaos, and there's less chaos.

I probably shouldn't imply that the more order the better. But too much of either isn't favorable in life. Maybe neither is superior?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2848822 - 07/01/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

chaos to me implies infinite potential. Order implies finite limitations. personally I would rather live in a universe that was fundamentally based in chaos than one that was fundamentally based in order... But I admit I may let these ideals skew my perception of reality.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848883 - 07/01/04 09:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Perfect chaos is so random as to be orderly.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848887 - 07/01/04 09:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

according to most of the cognitive and computer scientists I know, a perfectly chaotic number string would contain pockets of order which occured by chance, but it would ultimately be chaotic and have no underlying organization.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848892 - 07/01/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

But if disorder is PERFECT would that not also represent perfect order. I suggest that there is no difference between the two states.

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Offlineergot
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848903 - 07/01/04 09:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This thread rocks. DoctorJ and Huehue, actually. The rest don't get it. HAH!


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848935 - 07/01/04 09:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

don't even get me started on the paradoxes that arise when examining the universe. Its just not a very reasonable place. Its both and neither.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2848965 - 07/01/04 09:41 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well, actually, its so unreasonable as to make perfect sense.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2848976 - 07/01/04 09:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

all I'm saying is that for all the structure I see, I realize it is only substructure. I see no superstructure. Is it invisible to my eyes or does it simply not exist?

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849001 - 07/01/04 09:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

The superstructure is merely so large that the human mind cannot grasp it. You are an ant standing at the base of the Empire State Building.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849008 - 07/01/04 09:51 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well, the problem with pure chaos in a universe chaos is infinite, but is applied to a finite states (matter and energy.) The time these go on is, presumably, infinite, however. Therefore, if we represent matter by numbers going on for an infinite time, then there is only so many possibilities these numbers (matter) can take before they need to start repeating themselves, first in segments and then, finally, if you go on for infinite, completely repeating themselves. It is mathematics; take every possible 5 number strain using our traditional 10 numbers (0-9), and now take every possible order each of these 5 number strains can be in. Now continue to repeat this, and it is inevitable that it will have to repeat itself, due to chaos, which has the potential of infinity, being used with finite particles and energy.

Of course, this is under the assumption that the matter in the universe is finite, which it seems it must be. If somehow there were infinite matter, well, that's mostly impossible to comprehend, infinite matter for infinite time, and while it is possible it will repeat, it is not inevitable

Chaos is therefore superior, as chaos gives rise to order. Just as the entire universe is chaos on every basic level, it contains segments of order on every basic level, which otherwise without, it is doubtful we would exist


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849504 - 07/01/04 11:36 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?
one example will do....
chaos is a conclusion of one's limited perception. just cos the numbers get too big or complex for our brains, doesn't make it chaos.
scientists have tried for years to create true random number generators or random noise sources, for practical purposes they have succeeded in that the repetition rate is in milleniums. but on a universal scale, a few thousand years is nothing.

saying chaos is superior to order is like saying confusion is better than comprehension.
burn me  :sun:

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2849611 - 07/02/04 12:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?

Easy: measuring the spin axis of a photon. The resulting value is one of the truely random aspects of nature, as there is no way to accurately predict the value prior to measuring.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849625 - 07/02/04 12:03 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I am not a physicist, but I beleive much of quantum mechanics relies on the complete randomness of nature...correct me if I am wrong.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849645 - 07/02/04 12:06 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It's not that it (quantum mechanics) relies on randomness...so much as it predicts randomness.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849652 - 07/02/04 12:08 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

As I said I am NOT a physicist, but I consider myself well read. My wording is often very imprecise.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849786 - 07/02/04 12:41 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

there is no way to accurately predict the value prior to measuring.



that does not make it chaotic, there are many things we cannot predict, simply the because the maths involved is beyond our ken.
and again, just because scientists are unable to recognize nor measure the forces affecting and/or causing the photon's spin does not make it chaotic. but there is vibration (spin) why would this be subject to a different set of physical laws?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2849799 - 07/02/04 12:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

No one said it WAS subject to a different set of laws...but realize that there is a LARGE separation between the microscopic quantum-mechanical world and our macroscopic existence.

Quantum mechanics is the most accurate and successful theory ever created by human beings. We would not be here right now, posting this discussion on a computer and internet, without the amazing predictive power of quantum mechanics. Period.

That being said: randomness is what quantum mechanics predicts at the most fundamental levels of nature.

And yes, our inability to predict something doesn't make the thing itself chaotic...but it certainly makes the measured result chaotic :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849834 - 07/02/04 12:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And yes, our inability to predict something doesn't make the thing itself chaotic...but it certainly makes the measured result chaotic



thats what i wanted to hear.
thanx trendal.
so chaos does not exist in nature, only when we try to measure or comprehend some aspect of it?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2849860 - 07/02/04 01:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

so chaos does not exist in nature, only when we try to measure or comprehend some aspect of it?

The jury is still out on that one. The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics suggests that it is nature itself that is random...not just our measurement of it. There are other interpretations...but this is the most common one in physics today because it is the one that stands up to experimental evidence.

Einstein fought for much of his life to disprove the Copenhagen Interpretation. He has a famous quote on the subject: "God does not play dice". Time after time, however, he was proven wrong by experimental evidence. In some cases what he proposed as disproof of the Copenhagen Interpretation actually turned into even stronger proof FOR it!

Many experiments have been proposed and carried out in hopes of proving one way or the other if nature itself is random or just our measuring of it....yet none has ever shown nature to be anything but random.

So, the possibility remains that nature is not random at it's most fundamental levels...but at this point it should be considered highly unlikely.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849878 - 07/02/04 01:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I got a friend with a PHD in physics...you talk a lot like him. You got schooling in this? Just wondering.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849879 - 07/02/04 01:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

If anyone wants some good reading on the subject of quantum uncertainty and the Copenhagen Interpretation, check this site out: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849909 - 07/02/04 01:12 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

No formal schooling in physics (computer science was my major in University, before I left), but physics has been my great love as far back as I can remember. I was 4 or 5 when I started reading physics books for "fun", I think :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849934 - 07/02/04 01:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I am a computer science(programming) major. Completed last year. Go back if you like Physics you seem to know your shit. This is off topic, but if your a computer nerd why you got the Steve Balmer video going on? He is merely a marketing guy for a dying company.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849946 - 07/02/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Have you seen that video? It's probably one of the funniest displays of geekiness gone awry I've ever seen! :lol:

M$ can crash and burn, and I'll be happy to see it go. Though I am a windoze kiddie :smirk:

And now: back to your regularly scheduled S&P programming!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849968 - 07/02/04 01:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, that video is a sight I have seen it before. Balmer is a true dork. One last note though, try Debian Linux or FreeBSD, you wont go back. Now back to the subject of chaos...

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2849980 - 07/02/04 01:32 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I use slackware or knoppix (debian), when I'm using linux :wink:
Didn't like BSD too much, though.

Back to chaos: the more I learn in this life, the more convinced I am that our universe operates on randomness/chaos at it's most fundamental levels (at least in part). This chaos is not as readily apparent on our macroscopic levels because it gets "smeared out" as you zoom out of the microscopic.

I think that we still see a form of macroscopic chaos, though, because the macroscopic is based on the microscopic.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: trendal]
    #2849994 - 07/02/04 01:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Slack is good...

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2849998 - 07/02/04 01:39 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

CHAOS ORDER = REACH DOORS

Does that have any significance?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Swami]
    #2850002 - 07/02/04 01:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

word scramble games are fun...

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a key to the universe [Re: Swami]
    #2850624 - 07/02/04 09:18 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
CHAOS ORDER = REACH DOORS

Does that have any significance?




sometimes you are real good at this.
wonder if you know it.

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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2850715 - 07/02/04 10:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mr crisper said:
can someone give me a single example of a natural process that is purely chaotic, without order?
one example will do....
chaos is a conclusion of one's limited perception. just cos the numbers get too big or complex for our brains, doesn't make it chaos.
scientists have tried for years to create true random number generators or random noise sources, for practical purposes they have succeeded in that the repetition rate is in milleniums. but on a universal scale, a few thousand years is nothing.

saying chaos is superior to order is like saying confusion is better than comprehension.
burn me  :sun:





Well, I guess we can't with all certainty say that something IS chaotic, we could only say that our perception of that object suggests chaos. 

but nevertheless, I have my belief.  Perhaps science will support me, perhaps it won't.  Only time will tell. 

As far as examples of randomness the best example I can think of is genetic mutation.  although natural selection is a fairly logical process, the mutations which drive this process do not seem to follow any order.  Its a good thing they dont, too, because I find the variety of species on this planet to be highly amusing.  I wouldn't want it any other way :smile:

As yet I have seen no proof of a unified logical order that runs  the universe.  When I roll dice, the number produced is essentially random.  Sure you could argue that the dice's output could be predicted by physics.  All this is possible in theory, but I have yet to see it happen.  Until I do, I cannot conclude that the output of those die is the product of an ordered system and not random chance.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2850828 - 07/02/04 11:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


As far as examples of randomness the best example I can think of is genetic mutation. although natural selection is a fairly logical process, the mutations which drive this process do not seem to follow any order.




you said it yourself - 'do not seem to ...'
yep the sums are too big, doesn't mean they aren't there.
look at dna, it is a code, a language, billions of bytes folded into single cells. languages and codes are created.

Quote:

When I roll dice, the number produced is essentially random. Sure you could argue that the dice's output could be predicted by physics. All this is possible in theory, but I have yet to see it happen. Until I do, I cannot conclude that the output of those die is the product of an ordered system and not random chance.



actually the current level of scientific knowledge would have a tough time trying to calculate the fall of the dice. as trendal said, for all intents and purposes it is random from our perspective
but whatever number the dice lands on is not a random event, it is the direct result of a combination of factors - the weight of the dice, the surface resistance of the tabletop, wind, arm speed and direction.
the laws governing matter and energy do not break down when the numbers get too big or the subjects get too small, only our ability to recognize them diminishes.

we exist in an organised structure.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2851039 - 07/02/04 11:45 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

show me the money!!!!












(all your craps winnings that is- if die rolls are the product of a logical system you SHOULD be able to predict them ahead of time. Predictability and repeatability are much stronger evidence than unproven theories and fairy tales)

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2851326 - 07/02/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Look at yourself, look at the planets, look at people mowing your lawns...

These are very ordered, their structure, they are filled with purpose.


But how we understand these things... that is quite chaotic :wink:

Seems more that the world you percieve always seem to be shifting in between order and chaos. Isnt that the way it works though?


--------------------
What?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2851506 - 07/02/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

chaos is full of order, and order is prone to chaos.
flux is the constant

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2851511 - 07/02/04 01:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

We just haven't discovered gods simple random-generator. We will see it's made out of pure order :wink:

Sorry, couldn't resist...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2851723 - 07/02/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Chaos = Order = Chaos

The only difference seems to be the words. What is order? Does it REALLY exist? Doesn't perfect chaos create perfect order? Like someone mentioned thinking about a tree as perfect order. But a tree is a fractal.

"In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order."
Carl Jung

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (07/02/04 03:55 PM)

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2851964 - 07/02/04 03:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

chaos is all inclusive.

Order is by definition, exclusive

When dealing with specifics, order is useful, but when dealing with generalities, such as the totality of all things, the general rule seems to be no rule at all, ie: chaos.

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2852144 - 07/02/04 04:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
if die rolls are the product of a logical system you SHOULD be able to predict them ahead of time. Predictability and repeatability are much stronger evidence than unproven theories and fairy tales




Quote:

mr crisper said:
actually the current level of scientific knowledge would have a tough time trying to calculate the fall of the dice. as trendal said, for all intents and purposes it is random from our perspective but whatever number the dice lands on is not a random event, it is the direct result of a combination of factors - the weight of the dice, the surface resistance of the tabletop, wind, arm speed and direction. the laws governing matter and energy do not break down when the numbers get too big or the subjects get too small, only our ability to recognize them diminishes.



There's too many factors for us to currently comprehend an outcome. It is beyond our perspective.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2852175 - 07/02/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

'beyond our perspective' ?


Isnt that the same excuse new agers use when defending claims they can't back up with repeatable experimental evidence?

"the spirits are there, man...  you just can't see them because they're in another dimension which is beyond our comprehension...  Now give me all your money!"
:grin:

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2852203 - 07/02/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:  You're right.

Quote:

There's too many factors for us to currently comprehend an outcome.



Does that phrase work better for you?  I'm sure experiements could be designed with sophisticated software.  All we'd need to do is fill in every single variable involved with the action of rolling a die.  I think what mr crisper is saying is that there are too many variables.  Because we don't acknowledge each one, it doesn't mean they don't exist in the determination of the die's outcome.  This could mean that chaos does not exist.  It never did.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2852232 - 07/02/04 05:17 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I would say that phrase is accurate, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

When do the factors end? There will always be new factors that remain unaccounted for as long as time continues. I suppose the factors end when time ends, but right now we have no idea when -or even if- thats going to happen.

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OfflineOddish
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2852492 - 07/02/04 07:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"But thought's the slave of life, and life's time's fool,
And time, that takes survey of all the world,
Must have a stop."

Courtesy of Mr. Aldous Huxley.  :smile:

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Oddish]
    #2852578 - 07/02/04 08:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

when time stops I will be too busy collapsing under the weight of my own gravity to eat my words :smile:  Or maybe I'll be freezing to death.  I'm not sure which model is currently most popular.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2863594 - 07/07/04 12:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

The way I look at it, order is a human construct. We, and only we, imply order. Order is a figment of our imagination. :grin:

Take, for instance, an encrypted password. To someone who does not know the encryption, the string is random, meaningless. To someone else that has the understanding of the encryption, the same collection of characters has meaning.

Before I go any further, is it safe for me to go out on a limb and associate order and meaning as basically being the same thing?

We as humans pick up on a pattern and BOOM! We have order! Someone listening to static might pick up a distingushable sound. Their brain does some quick scanning and it is identified as someone's voice, speaking through a walkie-talkie. That noise, to a different set or ears, could be considered completely random static and probably wouldn't even be noticed. It is only order if we identify with it and label it, and we need to remember that there is a difference between our label and what it is that we are labeling. Our label doesn't exist. :wink:

Of course, it is very important to consider the programs we use to identify and define order with. Isn't the universe existing independant of our perception of it? Is the universe itself carrying any meaning? Aren't we implying the meaning?

The way I see it, there is only one system known as the universe. Forming two seperate systems, chaos and order, might serve some value for us and our intentions, but we need to realize that all we define as order is merely our definition. I guess the universe is either completely random or completely ordered. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2878893 - 07/11/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Chaos can contain pockets of order. Chaos does not rule out some order. Conversly, an ordered sequence of numbers would not be allowed to have any chaotic number subsequences in it; by definition, order cannot include chaos. Chaos can contain order, but order cannot contain chaos."

I disagree.

I don't like your example with the numbers - in a chaotic system, sure 12345678 would show up, but it would be chaotic - 12345678 is not ordered. It only looks ordered to you because we are pattern-finding machines. The only order is an idea in our minds - its all chaos, we're just inventing and labeling order within it.

but that's just one idea..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2878932 - 07/11/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
The only order is an idea in our minds - its all chaos, we're just inventing and labeling order within it.




That's what I'm saying too. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Order or Chaos? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2878958 - 07/11/04 05:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

oh yeah its probably a good idea to read all the replies before I post my own :wink:

Queue scolding by Sclorch


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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