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InvisibletrendalM
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Reality as a set of abstractions
    #2488966 - 04/01/04 01:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well this is a rather silly theory I came up with once after a hard mushroom trip. I supply it here in the hopes that it stimulates a few minds :wink:


I thought about what I consider "reality"...and what it is made of. Science is very fundamental in its search...in that it is mostly concerned with the "fundamentals" behind a given system. What is metal made of, science would ask. It would then turn to molecules and atoms which this thing we call "copper" is "really made from". Those atoms, in term, science says are made of even smaller more fundamental particles. And so on...

Is this habitually overlooking of the whole?

Think (as I did):

The most basic constituent of everything in existence surely lays in the quantum realm. It's processes are that of the quantum world. If you take enough of the quantum world together, it becomes more convenient for us to look at it as chemical in nature. Chemistry is an abstracted form of the quantum world. Things can be done "in chemistry" that are not possible in the purely quantum reality. Chemisty adds-on to the existence formed by the quantum set, and the chemistry set contains the quantum set as a subset.

Biology, then, is an abstracted form of chemistry. There are things in biology which appear to be impossible in the purely chemical world. We can describe life in terms of chemistry...yet it is much more convenient to talk about biology. Just as it is easier to talk of chemistry than quantum physics.

Then you have consciousness, which appears (to me) to be an abstracted form of biology. I'm sure you could describe human consciousness as a function of biology...but it appears to be much more convenient to speak in terms of consciousness.

Do we see the progression yet?

My first thought to this, of course, was "what comes after consciousness?"

I don't know, and don't care to speculate just yet :wink:

I also thought about the relationship between each of these "layers".

As the complexity of a system increases, a point is reached where it becomes much easier to speak in abstracted terms - which simplify the subject. Some of the most complex chemical processes take place in some of the most basic of biological processes.

So I thought of a natural progression to the Universe, through time. At first, there was only the quantum world. As systems built themselves (the Universe appears to be a self-organizing system, to me) from the quantum, a point was reached where we refer to things as "chemical". Chemistry progressed into ever increasing complexity...and life was born (biology). Life progressed through ever increasingly complex organisms...and concsiousness was born.

Now consciousness progresses through increasing complexity...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineFrothytooFlacid
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489011 - 04/01/04 01:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I have thought along similar terms before - just not quite so eloquently. Our relationship to the micro worlds is interesting to think about. Especially when we also include the macro worlds..


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OfflineFrothytooFlacid
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489134 - 04/01/04 01:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's things like this that give me joy in believing in a soul. It would be quite enjoyable to not be limited to human reality.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489532 - 04/01/04 03:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Now consciousness progresses through increasing complexity...




...to create technology.  Without human conciousness, the technology we know would have never come to be.  We are the creators of our tools, however complex.  From our technology we have enabled ourselves to be connected via a means never before possible.  Perhaps we can now connect with those above our atmosphere?  :smile:

I dunno - it turned the gears - this is what was spit out.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: nubious]
    #2489580 - 04/01/04 04:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

technology...I hadn't thought of that :smile:

technology can seem, in most ways, simple compared to most biology...but technology is really just kind of a simple copy of reality. a simple abstraction? i don't know.

maybe technology is in the same set as biology right now...but is progressing towards a conscious set?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489591 - 04/01/04 04:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

memes.  A meme is a piece of information that consciousness creates, which is then tested and passed on or abandoned.  memes are like genes, in that they go through evolution and natural selection.  Consciousness creates memes.  Technology is the product of memes.  Technology also fascilitates meme evolution, for it allows everyone to access eachothers ideas.  Consciousness is coming together on a mechanical plane (eg. this thread).  I dunno, those are some ideas. :confused:


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OfflineFiddleMyDiddle
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489739 - 04/01/04 04:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nice theory, made me really think about technology and its advancement compared
to our own (mental and physical) advancement.  With technology advancement
itself seeming to share the same characteristics.

Except, technology seems merely a human abstraction of the whole process.
Perhaps the next step? Born from consciousness's ability to question and create?

While life takes from almost every molecular form, technology is hindered
by its proprietary structures.  Inherently, technology should share the same goal
as the life process then, and reach for its own consciousness.  However, it relies
solely on a human abstraction, until it can possibly create an abstraction of its own.


Ofcourse all the bots I make are pretty stupid....so its gonna be awhile :cool:


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Anonymous

Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2504207 - 04/01/04 12:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2505460 - 04/01/04 01:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nice food for thought, trendal.

I think whatever is beyond consciousness cannot be comprehended. Or maybe not quite yet...I wonder if it is somewhat related to spirituality? It appears to be much more convenient to speak in terms of spirituality when describing the topic, but so many vague and abstract terms/ phrases are used. Language can only do so much, especially when attempting to interpret what is next or more complex than consciousness.

Side note: Technology is one thing, folks. But think of the impact of advanced biotechnology...

EDIT: I forgot to mention art...I think it can sometimes better express abstract notions.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


Edited by viaggio (04/01/04 03:54 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: ]
    #2506319 - 04/01/04 06:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ahh, well then :smile:

The way I came to consciousness being the abstracted form of biology is that biology seems to inherently progress towards higher states of consciousness.

On the topic of science not being able to describe/explain consciousness...I think that some day science, in it's future form, will be able to describe everything in existence. It may be a description devoid of human Meaning...but it will still be an accurate description from the relative viewpoint of science :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2509805 - 04/01/04 09:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

maybe after consciousness comes the quantum level again. It's like a circle.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Viaggio]
    #2512679 - 04/01/04 11:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

... I think the idea of human conciousness developing is a good one Trendal... I think that when humans evolved and realized their 'mind' that it was on many different levels of awareness... so even though humans are classifyable sepratly from animals, there are many different levels of 'conciousness' all within the given system of human 'brains'. That having been said, I think this higher conciousness that some realize is the next step for human evolvement. What comes next? Who knows? Quantum bio technology? i'm sure we could have figured it out had we not gotten ourselves in the situation we have now as humans and society. Realize and evolve! stop 2012!


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2512766 - 04/02/04 12:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what if science fades, and we just know it. What if our brains can process things... like the massive moving brain of science. After all... we formulated "science", we gave it a name, we put things in it. We have made things through science. But its just a name. Maybe we wont look at it in the same way. Words are always changing, people are always changing, science is always changing.

To say that it could explain everything, would kind of rule out the whole infinity issue.

I think "science" is just the observation of nature, we manipulate it and abstract it to form other things. For our own experience. Its in a sense what learning is. When we read a science book, we are reading abstracted information of what we see, and how we learn. weve just extended it out. whats in a name.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2512871 - 04/02/04 12:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

When I said I think it will one day be able to explain existence...I did not mean in its current form! Science will, as with everything else, evolve. Either that or it dies out, as with everything else :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2512931 - 04/02/04 12:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

very true!

I think as time goes on, if people continue to live... that they will start to see all these things theyve made into different ways.

:thumbup: good thread!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2513012 - 04/02/04 12:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There's more to come :wink:

Stay tuned for the update: How Entropy Fits In

:grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2514655 - 04/02/04 01:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Entropy, being the measure of the level of disorder in a system, is always increasing. This is one of the most fundamental concepts in physics, as layed out in the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

So...entropy...or disorder...or maybe complexity...is always increasing.

Fractals and such are a good way to point out the fact that when disorder and/or complexity increase...an Order is produced spontaneously.

As the universe progresses towards ever-increasing disorder, increasingly complex forms of order are produced spontaneously. Life, then, is one form of this order produced. Conscious life is another form, with the added complexity. Maybe the Human Experience, culture, society, and psychology are all parts of this order which has spontaneously produced itself from the background of chaos.

For a long time I have thought about this. Life is inevitable. It did not have to be "created" by any external source...nor was it an "accident" or some random chance. Everything is the way it must be, for no reason other than this is the way the universe works :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2516595 - 04/02/04 02:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Remember that all of this is perceived through the filter of conciousness which cannot be removed.

Reality as we perceive it is most likely an illusion.


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"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2517934 - 04/02/04 05:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

For a long time I have thought about this. Life is inevitable. It did not have to be "created" by any external source...nor was it an "accident" or some random chance. Everything is the way it must be, for no reason other than this is the way the universe works




That's a self-fulfilling prophecy coming from a thinking, living heap of chemicals, if you catch my drift. Of course the universe had to have evolved like it has. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be here now, would we? It doesn't explain much, though. The universe's laws may have changed at some point, but have at least remained constant long enough for life to evolve into the state we're in now. They may change again.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Anonymous

Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2518142 - 04/02/04 09:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2519357 - 04/02/04 05:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Im really intrested in this 'chaos' theory stuff as of late.... I think the human brain is NOT classifyable as pure function of tissue, and NOT explainable by psychology.... that having been said, I think that psychology and biology play a LARGE part in helping us understand the bigger picture of what/why , but there is an even more complex 'system' of randomness that the universe employs, and I think this choas is in itself the essence of god...... god is spontaneos.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2519461 - 04/02/04 05:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You expressed interest in Chaos Theory, well here's an introduction to it.

http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html

Please read this, because judging by what you said you heard the word "Chaos Theory" and made up your own definition to what it meant. Here's your chance to read into it. After that, your concepts will be improved and I'd like to see how your concept of god changes with that. Find the order in Chaos, and you will have found science.


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OfflineEschalt
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2520303 - 04/03/04 12:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Mister order, he runs at a very good pace
but old mother chaos is winning the race

This is making me think....you're all such smart people. how about the universe as a hologram? All existence is chaotic to us, but then at the same time equally ordered in a way that we can't see but can sense like in interference patterns of some higher organizational order. Things only appear chaotic because we haven't acknowledged yet that order is just habit, trying to keep something from deteriorating...hmm I probably don't understand this at all.

That's a good link, ShroomHermit. I have read it all before and will probably do so again soon.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Eschalt]
    #2520346 - 04/03/04 12:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The universe as a hologram is a theory in physics, one of the newer ones I think. :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2521820 - 04/03/04 04:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks, dude, that was a great read  :stoned:


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

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Invisibletak
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2522327 - 04/03/04 07:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We are progressing into stupidity. I wish I existed at the quantum level.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: tak]
    #2522386 - 04/03/04 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We are progressing into stupidity.

Speak for yourself, man :grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2526076 - 04/05/04 12:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So why does the universe seem to evolve into more order...when one of THE MOST fundamental laws of physics states that systems are most likely to move into more dissorder?

Are we an aberration?


I think we've missed something...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2526095 - 04/05/04 12:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe we have depended too much on "fundamental laws", instead of looking elsewhere :wink: .

For me... my life seems to get more dissorderly. But i think thats a wanning perception. Its simply because their has been no intereferece of its progression... kind of like inertia. All these molecules and systems have properties... which allow them to interact, function, and change into very dynamic things. Because they have not been stopped... they have bllossomed into.. flowers, rocks, lava, air, weed, reciepts... you name it!


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2526117 - 04/05/04 12:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Because they have not been stopped... they have bllossomed into.."
makes me think again about what WE will 'blossom' into... should we not 'stop'


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2526129 - 04/05/04 12:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hopefully its not a mushroom cloud, but im skeptical.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2526137 - 04/05/04 12:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hopefully we will 'realize' our purpose and evolve into the next thing the light will evolve into... light being the global reality of conciousness that Is. who knows if we will achieve our goals though : - it's almost to the point of no return.... almost key word....


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2528053 - 04/05/04 04:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hopefully we will 'realize' our purpose and evolve into the next thing the light will evolve into... light being the global reality of conciousness that Is. who knows if we will achieve our goals though : -

>it's almost to the point of no return.... almost key word...
-In my opinion, we will never "evolve into the next thing the light will evolve into" because there are too many people who believe different things. You talk of a
>global reality of conciousness that Is
-but thats something that doesn't exist. People, just like you, don't subscribe to a global (read Universal) reality. Instead people, including you, have built a personal realty "shell" to exist outside of the Universal Reality... If you want people to be linked together in a common structure, instead of comming into conflicts with each other than preach for understanding amongst men and women instead of having them dellude themselves into belief factions. You have a really touchy-feely veiw that if we just realize this "light" the light will do it all for us. I prefer a hands on approach, because hoping and wishing takes a back seat to actually going out in the world and doing something.

>it's almost to the point of no return.... almost key word...
-Statements like this only put an expiration date on your will. What happens after the point of no return that you have chosen comes and goes?


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2531039 - 04/06/04 12:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder how human civilization fits into reality's growing complexity. Is our existence just a small part of some elaborate momentum of growth...like a a chemical reaction, only on more complex terms?

Hmm, I don't know if that will make sense to anyone.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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