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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread!
    #2174194 - 12/13/03 05:42 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Hey dudes,

This forum's a little dull these days, I'm finding. And what did TV do when ratings were down? They created reality TV! Yahoo! So, welcome to reality threading, the new fad here. Over the next while I'm going to attempt to get a homeless guy get off the street. Simple enough, you think.. give him some money, let him in your house. Well, here's the catch:

He's one of those BC street people from Ontario. Socially, a refried bean. Grown in the suburbs watching TV, sent to BC.. canned.. eaten.. I don't know, forget that analogy.

Here's his stance:

He believes that the human race is destroying the world and therefore things like cars, pavement, cities as we have them in general are the antithesis of logic. Pollution destroys the very land we need for survival, therefore... how can we continue to let it happen for even one more day? Time for us to stop supporting the system. For him this means not working at all. Sure, he may be using other people's work in the form of currency to survive, but.. you know.

Everybody is a slave. You are a slave if you have a job because.. um.. you are being forced to work and earn money so that you can own neat things that you like to have. Liberation from slavery in this case will be that we will all realize that material things like technology will not bring us happiness so we won't want to have factories, only shelter and food we grow with our own two hands.

His vision: Ecotopia. Streets removed. The reign of cars ended. Where once were freeways will now be gardens that will provide the food for us to eat. Who will grow them? Everybody will. We will all drop our jobs that allow us to buy a year's supply of food in a few weeks and instead work all year to feed ourselves. Skytrains will zip around above the street level to transport us. It will be heaven..

So, I've known this guy for a while, I met him first about two years ago and run into him from time to time and now we are living in the same neighbourhood so I talk to him regularly. I share the same utopian vision of a car-free world, but he doesn't have me with the whole part about how we all garden to feed ourselves because I've gardened all my life and.. I don't know, it's not as easy as it seems, but I guess when you grow up in the city and only know about gardening theoretically you wouldn't know this. I suspect he's never gardened, but I'll have to figure this out.

The thing is.. he doesn't seem to be happy with what he's doing, but he feels like he has to.. or something. By getting him off the street, I don't know exactly what that means.. I guess I'll attempt to curb his current lifestyle, because it just isn't rooted in.. I don't know.. reality. Here's a sample of a paraphrased conversation:

Him: We will all work as a community and build gardens and housing together.

Me: What about computers? who will build the computers?

Him: We won't need computers, we won't have them.

Me: But lots of people won't get on with your plan because people want computers.

Him: We need to show people they don't want them!


hmmmm... see, that's a pretty strange argument. The problem with his ideals and most idealists, is that they don't acknowledge that there are different people with different ideas. The sad thing about democracy is that everybody's opinion is treated equal.. the "good" ones and the "bad" ones.

I'll let you guys in on how the discussions go... feel free to disagree with me or agree with me and post your arguments for or against, or questions if you want to know anything about the whole situatiton.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2174211 - 12/13/03 05:59 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

It is always interesting how people who wish to go back in time forget why we invented and moved past those times. Anyway, tell him that computers will need to be used to control and build his sky trains. The train will need power and you can build from there. I too share a similar vision but I find that it will be necessary to eliminate about 90% of the worlds population to make it feasible. I might even be amicable to that but who is to choose the survivors? I have no more right to be part of the 10% than anyone else.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2174233 - 12/13/03 06:43 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

unless you're white.. then you deserve it.


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Offlinecastaway
Isanybodyreallyhome?
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Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2174267 - 12/13/03 07:34 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Change is associated with appreciation of error; a conclusion reached thru experience and instruction.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: castaway]
    #2174565 - 12/13/03 01:17 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Change is associated with appreciation of error;

Yeah, a bum is going to understand this one...


Computers? Who needs em!?! We got vacuum tubes!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAmnesiac
Re-memberingcosmic wisdom

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 188
Loc: Unknown
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Sclorch]
    #2174767 - 12/13/03 03:15 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

It is unrealistic to think that everybody in the world can live in the way that your friend has in mind. But he CAN live this way if he really wants to and works towards it for a while.

I can understand a lot of where he's coming from, his vision of the world is one that I would love to live in myself... going back to simplicity and ridding ourselves of these material obsessions we've grown to lust for so much.

There are communities all over the world where people can live the simple life, gardening for their food and living amongst a small community of people who all help each other out. They are difficult to find though, especially if you're living on the city streets which you hate so much and expect everything to magically be changed over when you wake up in the morning.

Of course working 9-5 and having a job working for the system sucks ass. I'm doing it right now, and I won't settle for it for the long-term stretch. But unfortunately, in order to free yourself from the system, you have to live in it for a while in order to gain enough momentum to break free.

Your friend needs to get a job for now and make some money, stick it out for a little while, then use the money he has made to learn the skills he needs to survive on his own, and get the hell away from the city. Idealism is OK as long as you still have some connection with reality, and the reality in this case is that people are going to live their stupid materialistic, ignorant, system-serving lives whether he likes it or not, but he still has the ability to live apart from it if he just gets his shit together.

He sounds like a good person though, I hope he makes it.


--------------------
Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Amnesiac]
    #2175325 - 12/13/03 08:23 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Okay. You need momentum to break from the system. How are you going to afford the trip to "away from the city?"
How are you going to survive there?

The answers to these questions might involve money but not neccessarily. Hitch hike. Steal.


anything to "fuck tha sys"


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2175391 - 12/13/03 09:18 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Gardening all year? WTF is that bullshit? Henry David Thoreau proved it only took him weeks to gather enough supplies to supply an entire year.

Who needs computers? Who needs technology? Or medicine for that matter...

Let's take a REAL REALITY check... nature works on evolution. Let's say you got a buddy that has diabetes. Wow, we have the technological advancement to keep him alive to a normal age... but guess what? HE REPRODUCED! Now, the genes are passed on... instead of a better species, we are keeping it weak. FUCK YOUR PROGRESSION--IT'S NOT REAL. The environment *IS* dying. And who cares if other people want a computer? Let them yearn for something, as I and the homeless man yearn for a better life.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175394 - 12/13/03 09:27 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Ergot.. gather? I'm not talking about gathering, I'm talking about farming as gathering is not a viable thing for the huge population to survive on.

And I'm not talking about agriculture either.

I'm talking about gardening.. everybody growing food with analog non-fossil feuling non-polluting techonology. Have you ever done this? It's hard. And if all it takes is a few weeks to supply yourself with everything you need for a whole year.. then do it.

Well, the problem with what you're saying.. let these people die and all that is that.. um.. who's going to kill them? With them using superior technology they'd be hard to kill. But I really don't understand your plan, so before I say anything else..

What exactly are you talking about? What's the plan for creating this better life for yourself?


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InvisibleLe_Canard
Danger Man

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 93,273
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2175458 - 12/13/03 10:11 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Sad to say, but life and reality usually "cures" idealists.

Not that I'm saying idealism is necessarily a bad thing. :smile:


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Offlineergot
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Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2175469 - 12/13/03 10:18 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

They will kill themselves... that is not of concern to me. A system rewarding the vices of greed, ignorance, and power can only lead to self-destruction, no matter how glorious the road there may appear. Nature will fix the deviant parties. I just hope enough of our species is spared to propagate, and hopefully understand the lessons needed to be learned from history.

Them using superior technology means nothing... that would mean a full-scale war is going on. That would be nice, but unrealistic. Evolution will prove who is correct... as it apparently is already giving major hints with the spread of AIDS, cancer, and various other health ailments.

I understand my philosophy on human experience and life is not applicable to this society, but that does not mean it's invalid; it's simply more likely ahead of its time.

And, I *do* garden. It is NOT at all difficult. Each family could produce enough harvest in their yard that is needed for a year's supply--we do... completely organic, for that matter. Those that don't... well, evolution can be a bitch... but at least I'm enough of a realist to realize it... unlike your phony realism and faith in a man-made system.


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175476 - 12/13/03 10:21 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

how can you grow enough in your garden to survive all year? you must have a big garden because my mom gardens and she doesn't come anywhere close to producing enough to live on.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlineergot
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2175484 - 12/13/03 10:27 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

A decent-sized garden, I suppose... but by no means a farm. We do supplement with groceries, obviously... however, I am quite sure if we chose to we could live on simply the fruits and vegetables we harvest.


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Offlineergot
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Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175487 - 12/13/03 10:28 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

...and former tribes and chiefdoms did it, let's all remember our history.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175526 - 12/13/03 10:53 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

ergot: And, I *do* garden. It is NOT at all difficult. Each family could produce enough harvest in their yard that is needed for a year's supply--we do... completely organic, for that matter. Those that don't... well, evolution can be a bitch... but at least I'm enough of a realist to realize it... unlike your phony realism and faith in a man-made system.

-------but the reason why people dont garden now is because Humans WANT more than just the basic necessities. Thats why we have the division of labour. You are supporting a vague brand of ecotericism under the belief that humans can exist within homeostasis.

that is wrong. Humans are constantly evolving. Evolution means change, not static. How do things change? through technology and thought. Each factor is recipricol, our intelligence creates technology, and our technology gives us the ability to develop higher levels of intelligence and knowledge.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlineergot
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175533 - 12/13/03 10:56 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
-------but the reason why people dont garden now is because Humans WANT more than just the basic necessities. Thats why we have the division of labour. You are supporting a vague brand of ecotericism under the belief that humans can exist within homeostasis.




Greed is a bad habit, isn't it?

Quote:

Positronius said:
that is wrong. Humans are constantly evolving. Evolution means change, not static. How do things change? through technology and thought. Each factor is recipricol, our intelligence creates technology, and our technology gives us the ability to develop higher levels of intelligence and knowledge.




Evolution does mean change... do you think the genetics of this species would stagnate based on a lack of excessive technology? Honestly, is this what you are implying? We *NEED* technology to evolve and learn? That is absurd. Other animals seem to be doing just fine at this whole evolution process without checking out "Must See TV" on NBC...


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Offlineergot
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2175538 - 12/13/03 10:58 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Sad to say, but life and reality usually "cures" idealists.

Not that I'm saying idealism is necessarily a bad thing. :smile:




What if the beliefs right now are simply idealistic? An ideology formed to create a "reality" based on consensual agreement? Could not an idealist viewpoint eventually become the reality?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175572 - 12/13/03 11:14 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Convert an Idealist?

to what?

Another ideology? yours, perhaps?

certainly you dont claim to see the world as it really is. Who does?


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlineergot
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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2175588 - 12/13/03 11:24 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

EXACTLY. An idealist is the same as a realist... the only difference is a "realist" has the majority to corroborate with his BELIEFS. This whole thread is based on imposing conformity... I mean, just the name of it, "Can I convert an idealist?" Wait.. CONVERT? Yes, your beliefs are just as dogmatic as a religion...


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175677 - 12/14/03 12:35 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

ergot - We *NEED* technology to evolve and learn? That is absurd. Other animals seem to be doing just fine at this whole evolution process without checking out "Must See TV" on NBC...

---come on man, when I say technology I dont mean Television. Do you think humans would be able to achieve complex levels of knowledge --- like physics and engineering without a written language? we need technology to develop our thoughts, that is a fact. You cannot achieve what we have in the modern world without putting pen to paper.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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