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idealists suck!
    #1734996 -


okay, right off the top lets make a distinction; there are two types of idealists = realistic and unrealistic

realistic idealist are people who hold ideals, but also have methods/tactics to implement these ideals.

then there are unrealistic idealists, people who have ideals but have no way to manifest these ideals in reality.

the former sickens me. They tend to claim moral/cultural superiority over the apathetic and those they label as their enemies. But in actuality, they in no way differ from the apathetic, they only think they do, but its all a self-constructed fantasy.

If you cannot implement your "positive" ideal without negative effects, then you fall into the unrealistic catergory as well. This is basically what I call "the communist syndrome".

so what are your thoughts on idealists? mental masturbators?


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735025 -

Idealism is good to anticipate the future. Look at Julio Verne, he idealized many things not possible to his present, he inspired people which turned some of his ideas possible.

What if modern democracy wasn't idealized ? Idealists made it happen although the first modern demrocratic idealists never saw the light of the day for their ideals.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: MAIA]
    #1735034 -

good point, but democracy would definitely fall into the realistic catergory.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735048 -

it certainly doesn't seem realistic if you look at the history of democracy (see: the fall of greece and the rise of nazi germany)

unrealistic idealists = artists

"realistic" idealists = not idealists


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Malachi]
    #1735069 -

soo...mao ze dong was an artist?


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735210 -

nope, he was power hungry.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Edited by Malachi (07/21/03 02:27 PM)

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Malachi]
    #1735225 -

he was hungarian?....now it all makes sense~!


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735262 -

whoops.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735388 -

realistic idealist are people who hold ideals, but also have methods/tactics to implement these ideals.

then there are unrealistic idealists, people who have ideals but have no way to manifest these ideals in reality.

the former sickens me. They tend to claim moral/cultural superiority over the apathetic and those they label as their enemies. But in actuality, they in no way differ from the apathetic, they only think they do, but its all a self-constructed fantasy.

don't you mean the latter?

well I happen to be an idealist. some ideals can't be implemented in this world probably in my lifetime but maybe overzelous idealists can inspire the realistic idealists to work for change in the world.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1735446 -

the idealists do the thinking, they are not activists, and don't claim to be.

as long as they get their ideas across in a constructive, well thought manner, then their mission has been accomplished.

whereas an activist's mission is accomplished when something is done.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735588 -

Quote:
good point, but democracy would definitely fall into the realistic catergory.


Yes, but only now. How would you call someone living in a medieval feudalist society thinking about something like people rights, freedom and choosing their governments by universal vote ?
To tell you the truth i find myself an idealist. Socially i believe there are two ways of evolution and a final objective, they are towards total destruction or towards total enlightenment. As for the former goes, lack of freedom, lack of responsibility, repressive values and laws are symptoms of a dark future. As for the later goes i find the symptoms logically the opposite, if we can give more freedom with a burden of more responsibility but with high ideals and values shared by everyone, we would find an enlightened and bright future ahead of us.
Now, is it bad to imagine the future ? But how can you think about one without ideas ?
If we are to build something mentally, we have to idealize it first. That's how we build the future, with ideas ,with those who have ideas (idealists)and with those which later put them in practice (pioneers).

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: MAIA]
    #1735692 -

It's a balance between what you want (idealism) and what works (pragmatism).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1735867 -

No offense but you have alot built up rage resulting in wrongful judgement.. Sure there are poeple out there who might not practice what they preach but when it comes down to it you should be trying to nurture these people with loving energy and accept them for who they are.. Inventing categories to place people in doesn't really help anyone.. Just look at the sorry state of politics right now.. The biggest danger there is to the self is the self.. Just think every negative thought which is concieved is poluted by our own personel biases which we all have.. It might be a good Idea to try and activate your root chakra under you genitals.. This is where all the energy comes from wich eventually migrate's upward and will be coloured by the ego into thought forms.. When this is activated it becomes possible to open the 3rd eye and when you see through this all things are connected as one..

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Bhairabas]
    #1735890 -

who are you addressing? if its me....i have no rage at all. Im just sick of people who claim superiority over the apathetic just because they "believe" certain things.

blah blah blah 3rd eye blah blah blah


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1735939 -

And this sickness you feel where does it stem from?? The people around you or you own ego???

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Bhairabas]
    #1736064 -

no, it stems from people claiming superiority over others, but in reality having the same social impact of those they criticize. Yes this conflicts with my ego's desire to see positive change on earth.

the horrid horrid EGO!


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1736149 -

Nah idealists who never achieve anything are cool... NOT

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1736166 -

No it's your ego trying to categorize everyone around you... Some things have more than 2 shades of colour..

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Dogomush]
    #1736175 -

Dogomush said:
Nah idealists who never achieve anything are cool... NOT


Who are you to judge someone else's life? People live how they want to live, as long as they don't violently interfere with anyone's life or freedom, it's up to them. They might have been the happiest person on Earth.
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1736220 -

Bhairabas: you should write a self-help book, because you have all the earmarks of a pseudo-guru


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1736236 -

I get all my Idea's from fortune cookie's

Edited by Bhairabas (07/21/03 07:58 PM)

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1736594 -

atomikfunksoldier said:
Bhairabas: you should write a self-help book, because you have all the earmarks of a pseudo-guru


what makes him a quasi guru?

enlightenment = being able to always be nice to people ?


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Malachi]
    #1737449 -

Quote:
enlightenment = being able to always be nice to people ?


Not just that, it is also being able to see all things beyond their superficiality.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1739803 -

Hmm. This is a weird one.

I consider myself an idealist - what you would probably clump into the "unrealistic" category. I have a very well defined and developed series of filters and processes that drive my behaviours, and I try my damndest every day of my life to live by them.

I will drive out of my way to buy gas from a store that doesn't sell tobacco. I will pay more for food grown organically or even more for food from a co-op. I would sooner live on the street than work for certain companies whom I deem sub-human, i.e. any company owned by Disney, Philip Morris, or Citibank. I have quit jobs and put myself in financial peril because I had disdain for the way a company did it's business and treated it's people and customers.

I'm not patting myself on the back for any of this - I'm simply pointing out what makes me an "idealist", by your definition. Do I believe that my behaviour is really going to change the world? No. Do I believe that most people have any clue what I'm doing? Nope. Would it matter if they did? Nah.

Why do I do it, then? Because I believe that if we truly want to make the world better, then we have to start with ourselves. How can we expect others to make sacrifices for the 'greater good', if we are unwilling to make those sacrifices ourselves? How can we ever hope to paint a picture of perfection if we do not daily, and with every breath we take, strive for that perfection ourselves.

Am I perfect because I have lofty ideals and try to live my life by them? Hell no. I'm as much of an ass and an idiot as pretty much every other schmuck you meet on the street. Do I consider myself better than those who don't live their lives by some sort of idealistic system. Yah - actually, I do. I'm doing something, goddammit, and everything that I do in my life, I attempt to do with full consciousness of my actions and their repurcussions for myself, those around me, and the world in general.

And I think if more of us idiots and morons spent a little more time doing just that, then we'd all be a hell of a lot better off. So if you think that I'm a "communist" for this, then god bless you, comrade.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1739907 -

I have practiced both types of idealism, and both kinds pay off.

activist idealism pays off when you get shit done

unrealistic idealism pays off when you inspire others to get shit done.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1740000 -

gern- "that I'm a "communist" for this, then god bless you, comrade."

you misinterpreted my statement, i dont think unrealistic idealists are communists, I think communists are unrealistic idealists, because theyre ideals cannot be realistically implemented without negative results that condradict theyre ideals.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1740361 -

Ah - then I did, in fact, misunderstand you :smile:  My apologies.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1920723 -

I guess I suck then.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: Leonopoly]
    #1920755 -

I'd call myself a bit of both kinds of idealism. The problem with trying to change anything in the world is that too many people strive only to attain their personal carnal delights, and don't think about the fact that for instance Philip-Morris supports the KKK, that Coca-Cola destroyed the local softdrinks economy in Central America, and so on and so forth. Whenever I can, I try not to buy anything from any company that supports amoral practice.
By the way, do you have any idea how hard it is to, for instance, boycott U.S. products if you don't agree with their world domination politics? It's not like every package of every product says who owns the company and what they do with their money.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1920793 -

why ask this question? sure you may not agree with what ideas that others have but that's the great thing actually! why do other's people ideas make you sick? no matter how outlandish it may be, what's wrong with letting someone believe in what they believe? as long as they aren't hindering your freedom, then there's no harm, no foul. why judge someone else for their imperfections when you yourself aren't perfect? judge in this sense means to say what is right and what is wrong. after all, your version of right and wrong may differ from mine.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: idealists suck! [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1932818 -

As humans, we catagorize to better understand that which we do not yet have a grasp upon. Not that it is always right or just to do so, it is something we do.
Now, questioning this becomes a horse of a different color. Is this acculturation or is it innate? That really is the question more than WHY we do it, is how we do it and what are the origins? If we better understand the reasons behind our beleifs we are more capable of understanding them on our own terms and not requiring the use of catagories (or even labels).


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"Those sweet excesses I do adore."


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