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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175678 - 12/13/03 10:36 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

ergot: An idealist is the same as a realist...

no thats very incorrect, think it through a little more. Realists understand that their ideology is not objective truth, and that other people's ideologies are as equal as theirs, so they solve problems through political means. An idealist thinks that their ideology is the correct way.

very different train of thought


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175701 - 12/13/03 10:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
ergot - We *NEED* technology to evolve and learn? That is absurd. Other animals seem to be doing just fine at this whole evolution process without checking out "Must See TV" on NBC...

---come on man, when I say technology I dont mean Television. Do you think humans would be able to achieve complex levels of knowledge --- like physics and engineering without a written language? we need technology to develop our thoughts, that is a fact. You cannot achieve what we have in the modern world without putting pen to paper.




And what has physics and engineering truly developed? Honestly... we work 9-5 a day for money... depression is on the rise... ADD/ADHD... divorce rates at an all time high... damn, we are truly becoming such a great species!

I'm not sure I deem written language a technology... when we communicate orally, is that technology? Minimalistic technology is what I am really implying any ways... not the technology that is bent on getting you the smallest cell phone you CAN'T afford...

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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175703 - 12/13/03 10:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
ergot: An idealist is the same as a realist...

no thats very incorrect, think it through a little more. Realists understand that their ideology is not objective truth, and that other people's ideologies are as equal as theirs, so they solve problems through political means. An idealist thinks that their ideology is the correct way.

very different train of thought




Solving problems through political means? That sounds idealistic to me.

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2176391 - 12/14/03 08:28 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

no, you misunderstand. Im talking about the political process, the process of - meeting people with different opinions, talking things over, discussing what is best for everyone.

and yes, written language is definitly a form of technology, and so is a book, and so is a computer disk. What have physics given us? well, for one - a better understanding of our universe. The computer you are using is a result of engineering. Depression is not a result of technology, its the result of a lack of willpower on the individuals behalf.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2176417 - 12/14/03 08:52 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
no, you misunderstand. Im talking about the political process, the process of - meeting people with different opinions, talking things over, discussing what is best for everyone.




You will NEVER arrive at what is best for every one, like I said... your political process is still idealistic... at least the homeless man's plan would fix a lot of apparent problems in one swift blow.

Quote:

Positronius said:
and yes, written language is definitly a form of technology, and so is a book, and so is a computer disk. What have physics given us? well, for one - a better understanding of our universe. The computer you are using is a result of engineering. Depression is not a result of technology, its the result of a lack of willpower on the individuals behalf.




A lack of will power? What triggers that lack of will power? A lust for social acceptance? A thrist for a new car? A feeling of hopelessness at the workplace? The widespread depression now apparent is created from factors of our "realist" society.

And physics has given us a better understanding of our universe? Well, to me, I think we are just as clueless as we ever have been... but now coporations have more knowledge to create even more shiny new toys to tempt us with...

Okay, well... if written language is technology, so is all of Picasso's paintings... or at least that's what it seems like to me. A pictographic message. The book, with its bindings and paper made from natural resources is a bit of technology obviously, and so is a computer disk that stores information... but written language still does not apply to that category in my opinion.

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2176428 - 12/14/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

ergot: You will NEVER arrive at what is best for every one, like I said... your political process is still idealistic... at least the homeless man's plan would fix a lot of apparent problems in one swift blow.

----yeah, I never said you would arrive at what is best for everyone, nor would I want it to, I dont really care about the neo-nazi agenda, or a pedophiles perspective.

ergot: I think we are just as clueless as we ever have been...

---I dont know, I think scientific knowledge comes in pretty handy, it would have sucked to live during a time where people with mental illnesses were treated like animals because doctors didnt know what was wrong with them.

ergot: technology, so is all of Picasso's paintings...

yes of course it is, the canvas, the paint, all of that evolved from primitive rock carving. Now we have film, cd's and photographs. All beautiful forms of technology that make our lives more enjoyable.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2176434 - 12/14/03 09:08 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
ergot: You will NEVER arrive at what is best for every one, like I said... your political process is still idealistic... at least the homeless man's plan would fix a lot of apparent problems in one swift blow.

----yeah, I never said you would arrive at what is best for everyone, nor would I want it to, I dont really care about the neo-nazi agenda, or a pedophiles perspective.





So, what's the point? I'm not sure why you raise up the issue of politics, then... if the system that doesn't appeal to every one, is the same system now dominating our lives, ruining our environment, and giveing us a 2nd-rate human experience... why would we ever choose to support it? I consider it now only even helping a minority of people (the wealthy).

Quote:

Positronius said:
ergot: I think we are just as clueless as we ever have been...

---I dont know, I think scientific knowledge comes in pretty handy, it would have sucked to live during a time where people with mental illnesses were treated like animals because doctors didnt know what was wrong with them.




I already talked about the wonders of medicine in a previous post... but to add something here, we are only animals...  :smirk: but to treat a person as a person doesn't require science, it requires compassion.

Quote:

Positronius said:
ergot: technology, so is all of Picasso's paintings...

yes of course it is, the canvas, the paint, all of that evolved from primitive rock carving. Now we have film, cd's and photographs. All beautiful forms of technology that make our lives more enjoyable.




Point well made... about PAINTINGS. I was wrong there, but written language requires none of those things.

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2176562 - 12/14/03 10:28 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

ergot-So, what's the point?

well, the point is, to supply the majority with the ability to be happy and free, thats the point, and in order to do this you need a complex economic system.

ergot- why would we ever choose to support it?

well, I enjoy health care, I enjoy being able to use rapid transit, I enjoy alot about infrastructure, most importantly the ability to buy food at a cheap price so I dont have to spend my life growing my own food - so I can pursue my own interests.

ergot- but to treat a person as a person doesn't require science, it requires compassion.

yes but to further our ability to understand the human mind does require science, and it is this understanding that can provide the tools to necessitate that compassion.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2177075 - 12/14/03 02:53 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Convert an Idealist?

to what?

Another ideology? yours, perhaps?

certainly you dont claim to see the world as it really is. Who does?


Read the post. I want to convert an idealist to someone who can realize his goals through pragmatism. Maybe there are better ways to create his vision than telling everybody to quit their jobs and give up everything they want ie: computers and other comfortable technology. I propose a step-by-step approach using the system that's already in place. I would like to see him have some successes and feel good about himself by creating real change that we can all see. This might even *gasp* involve him training to be a civic planner or get a job to raise money to promote his cause.

As opposed to sitting on the street with a sign.

and giveing us a 2nd-rate human experience

some would call this a first rate human experience. what you fail to acknowledge is other people's opinions.. that getting a car and buying clothes at the gap and working 9-5 is a good existence. An idealist believes other's opinions on what a good life is to be wrong. I suggest you open your mind to the world around you, but be careful, you may not like having to acknowledge the common humanity between you and the cell phonies. I suggest compassion instead of seeing your fellow man as a weakness holding back the human race from your lofty goals for us all (instead of a better species, we are keeping it weak. )

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2193915 - 12/21/03 01:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"that getting a car and buying clothes at the gap and working 9-5 is a good existence"

lots of people enjoy a green plastic world. Why do people expect everyone to be such independant thinkers? conformity is comfortable. You dont have to think about problematic thoughts, you just accept the culture put forth by your society.

mmmmmmm

get a stable job, a decent car, fall in love, have sex, have babies, learn how to cook dinner, celebrate holidays, listen to pop music, go for drinks on the weekend. Build a family within your community. One day you have grandkids, spoil them.

its nice for some people to have everything laid out before them. Not everyone is up to being an independant spiritual warrior.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2194932 - 12/22/03 01:14 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So I was chatting the other day with him.. He has little to no gardening experience, as I suspected. His idea that we can all easily grow lots of food together without doing any work is based on a lot of assumptions on how easy it is to grow food. I'm going to suggest to him that as a way for him to promote his ideals, he studies gardening for the next few months, and when spring hits, he can go somewhere where nobody will tell him to get off their land, and build a garden where he will live and feed himself all year.

If he's successful, then I'd be very impressed and so would lots of people especially after he makes a story out of himself and shows other people what can be done. This would further his cause more than sitting on the street, because people would be inspired by him and see him as a leader of a movement, which in some ways, whether he acknowledges it or not, he is.

If he fails, then he'll be reinforced to reevaluate his idealism and find a more pragmatic approach and goal, one that would inevitably sit well with more people and therefore be more realistic (and democratically supported).

I wonder if he'll accept the challenge..

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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 22 days
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2195470 - 12/22/03 10:52 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You can be an independant thinker and have a 9-5 job and buy clothes at the Gap.

Is it possible to think independantly and come to the conclusion that modern society is just peachy? Sure it is.

Of course, the tie dye and long hair set would all tell you in unison that you're a conformist pig.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Phluck]
    #2195549 - 12/22/03 11:32 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
You can be an independant thinker and have a 9-5 job and buy clothes at the Gap.

Is it possible to think independantly and come to the conclusion that modern society is just peachy? Sure it is.

Of course, the tie dye and long hair set would all tell you in unison that you're a conformist pig.





I agree. Being an independant thinker does not mean you have to hate the system. But it does mean your eyes will be open to its flaws.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: sirreal]
    #2196650 - 12/22/03 08:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The funny thing is.. if all you do is sit around and talk about how everybody is a slave to the system, then aren't YOU also a slave to the system even if you've renounced money, jobs, and disposable paper products? The whole idea of somehow being separate from the system is pretty ridiculous.

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2204451 - 12/27/03 06:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

if the idea of a system dominates your thoughts, then you are slave to it.

thus the anarchist is more of a slave than the thoughtless janitor.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 15 years, 16 days
Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2204705 - 12/27/03 08:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

well, to use the terms "idealism" and "realism" in their philosophic/metaphysical/epistemic sense, not the conventional sense, I'd say that realism doesn't have a case against idealism. really you need to suppose an apperence beyond this reality to justify concepts like free will and value (right/wrong).

so... the realist says "this is it" and the idealist says "no it's not, you just can't see the consequences directly". god doesn't appear to punish evil in this reality, and yet for something to be wrong it must have consequence - something to do with the state of ourselves, our souls, our minds, all immaterial ideal concepts.

so... the hippie is an extreme version of an epistemic idealist, but an idealist need not be a hippie... conventionally, an idealist can be realistic.

so within my idealism, I think we are justified in changing society to nurture ideal concepts that aren't directly apparent. yes, that means I'd rather not get a job and I'd steal a rich man blind if I have the chance. that means I don't consider this... shit... to be really real. it's a fucktrap that we're stuck in, but the ideal exists REALLY and that's why it's a fucktrap. if the ideal wasn't real there'd be no value.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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