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Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread!
    #2174194 -

Hey dudes,

This forum's a little dull these days, I'm finding. And what did TV do when ratings were down? They created reality TV! Yahoo! So, welcome to reality threading, the new fad here. Over the next while I'm going to attempt to get a homeless guy get off the street. Simple enough, you think.. give him some money, let him in your house. Well, here's the catch:

He's one of those BC street people from Ontario. Socially, a refried bean. Grown in the suburbs watching TV, sent to BC.. canned.. eaten.. I don't know, forget that analogy.

Here's his stance:

He believes that the human race is destroying the world and therefore things like cars, pavement, cities as we have them in general are the antithesis of logic. Pollution destroys the very land we need for survival, therefore... how can we continue to let it happen for even one more day? Time for us to stop supporting the system. For him this means not working at all. Sure, he may be using other people's work in the form of currency to survive, but.. you know.

Everybody is a slave. You are a slave if you have a job because.. um.. you are being forced to work and earn money so that you can own neat things that you like to have. Liberation from slavery in this case will be that we will all realize that material things like technology will not bring us happiness so we won't want to have factories, only shelter and food we grow with our own two hands.

His vision: Ecotopia. Streets removed. The reign of cars ended. Where once were freeways will now be gardens that will provide the food for us to eat. Who will grow them? Everybody will. We will all drop our jobs that allow us to buy a year's supply of food in a few weeks and instead work all year to feed ourselves. Skytrains will zip around above the street level to transport us. It will be heaven..

So, I've known this guy for a while, I met him first about two years ago and run into him from time to time and now we are living in the same neighbourhood so I talk to him regularly. I share the same utopian vision of a car-free world, but he doesn't have me with the whole part about how we all garden to feed ourselves because I've gardened all my life and.. I don't know, it's not as easy as it seems, but I guess when you grow up in the city and only know about gardening theoretically you wouldn't know this. I suspect he's never gardened, but I'll have to figure this out.

The thing is.. he doesn't seem to be happy with what he's doing, but he feels like he has to.. or something. By getting him off the street, I don't know exactly what that means.. I guess I'll attempt to curb his current lifestyle, because it just isn't rooted in.. I don't know.. reality. Here's a sample of a paraphrased conversation:

Him: We will all work as a community and build gardens and housing together.

Me: What about computers? who will build the computers?

Him: We won't need computers, we won't have them.

Me: But lots of people won't get on with your plan because people want computers.

Him: We need to show people they don't want them!


hmmmm... see, that's a pretty strange argument. The problem with his ideals and most idealists, is that they don't acknowledge that there are different people with different ideas. The sad thing about democracy is that everybody's opinion is treated equal.. the "good" ones and the "bad" ones.

I'll let you guys in on how the discussions go... feel free to disagree with me or agree with me and post your arguments for or against, or questions if you want to know anything about the whole situatiton.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2174211 -

It is always interesting how people who wish to go back in time forget why we invented and moved past those times. Anyway, tell him that computers will need to be used to control and build his sky trains. The train will need power and you can build from there. I too share a similar vision but I find that it will be necessary to eliminate about 90% of the worlds population to make it feasible. I might even be amicable to that but who is to choose the survivors? I have no more right to be part of the 10% than anyone else.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2174233 -

unless you're white.. then you deserve it.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2174267 -

Change is associated with appreciation of error; a conclusion reached thru experience and instruction.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: castaway]
    #2174565 -

Change is associated with appreciation of error;

Yeah, a bum is going to understand this one...


Computers? Who needs em!?! We got vacuum tubes!


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Sclorch]
    #2174767 -

It is unrealistic to think that everybody in the world can live in the way that your friend has in mind. But he CAN live this way if he really wants to and works towards it for a while.

I can understand a lot of where he's coming from, his vision of the world is one that I would love to live in myself... going back to simplicity and ridding ourselves of these material obsessions we've grown to lust for so much.

There are communities all over the world where people can live the simple life, gardening for their food and living amongst a small community of people who all help each other out. They are difficult to find though, especially if you're living on the city streets which you hate so much and expect everything to magically be changed over when you wake up in the morning.

Of course working 9-5 and having a job working for the system sucks ass. I'm doing it right now, and I won't settle for it for the long-term stretch. But unfortunately, in order to free yourself from the system, you have to live in it for a while in order to gain enough momentum to break free.

Your friend needs to get a job for now and make some money, stick it out for a little while, then use the money he has made to learn the skills he needs to survive on his own, and get the hell away from the city. Idealism is OK as long as you still have some connection with reality, and the reality in this case is that people are going to live their stupid materialistic, ignorant, system-serving lives whether he likes it or not, but he still has the ability to live apart from it if he just gets his shit together.

He sounds like a good person though, I hope he makes it.


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Amnesiac]
    #2175325 -

Okay. You need momentum to break from the system. How are you going to afford the trip to "away from the city?"
How are you going to survive there?

The answers to these questions might involve money but not neccessarily. Hitch hike. Steal.


anything to "fuck tha sys"


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We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2175391 -

Gardening all year? WTF is that bullshit? Henry David Thoreau proved it only took him weeks to gather enough supplies to supply an entire year.

Who needs computers? Who needs technology? Or medicine for that matter...

Let's take a REAL REALITY check... nature works on evolution. Let's say you got a buddy that has diabetes. Wow, we have the technological advancement to keep him alive to a normal age... but guess what? HE REPRODUCED! Now, the genes are passed on... instead of a better species, we are keeping it weak. FUCK YOUR PROGRESSION--IT'S NOT REAL. The environment *IS* dying. And who cares if other people want a computer? Let them yearn for something, as I and the homeless man yearn for a better life.


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175394 -

Ergot.. gather? I'm not talking about gathering, I'm talking about farming as gathering is not a viable thing for the huge population to survive on.

And I'm not talking about agriculture either.

I'm talking about gardening.. everybody growing food with analog non-fossil feuling non-polluting techonology. Have you ever done this? It's hard. And if all it takes is a few weeks to supply yourself with everything you need for a whole year.. then do it.

Well, the problem with what you're saying.. let these people die and all that is that.. um.. who's going to kill them? With them using superior technology they'd be hard to kill. But I really don't understand your plan, so before I say anything else..

What exactly are you talking about? What's the plan for creating this better life for yourself?

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2175458 -

Sad to say, but life and reality usually "cures" idealists.

Not that I'm saying idealism is necessarily a bad thing. :smile:

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2175469 -

They will kill themselves... that is not of concern to me. A system rewarding the vices of greed, ignorance, and power can only lead to self-destruction, no matter how glorious the road there may appear. Nature will fix the deviant parties. I just hope enough of our species is spared to propagate, and hopefully understand the lessons needed to be learned from history.

Them using superior technology means nothing... that would mean a full-scale war is going on. That would be nice, but unrealistic. Evolution will prove who is correct... as it apparently is already giving major hints with the spread of AIDS, cancer, and various other health ailments.

I understand my philosophy on human experience and life is not applicable to this society, but that does not mean it's invalid; it's simply more likely ahead of its time.

And, I *do* garden. It is NOT at all difficult. Each family could produce enough harvest in their yard that is needed for a year's supply--we do... completely organic, for that matter. Those that don't... well, evolution can be a bitch... but at least I'm enough of a realist to realize it... unlike your phony realism and faith in a man-made system.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175476 -

how can you grow enough in your garden to survive all year? you must have a big garden because my mom gardens and she doesn't come anywhere close to producing enough to live on.


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We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2175484 -

A decent-sized garden, I suppose... but by no means a farm. We do supplement with groceries, obviously... however, I am quite sure if we chose to we could live on simply the fruits and vegetables we harvest.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175487 -

...and former tribes and chiefdoms did it, let's all remember our history.


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175526 -

ergot: And, I *do* garden. It is NOT at all difficult. Each family could produce enough harvest in their yard that is needed for a year's supply--we do... completely organic, for that matter. Those that don't... well, evolution can be a bitch... but at least I'm enough of a realist to realize it... unlike your phony realism and faith in a man-made system.

-------but the reason why people dont garden now is because Humans WANT more than just the basic necessities. Thats why we have the division of labour. You are supporting a vague brand of ecotericism under the belief that humans can exist within homeostasis.

that is wrong. Humans are constantly evolving. Evolution means change, not static. How do things change? through technology and thought. Each factor is recipricol, our intelligence creates technology, and our technology gives us the ability to develop higher levels of intelligence and knowledge.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175533 -

Positronius said:
-------but the reason why people dont garden now is because Humans WANT more than just the basic necessities. Thats why we have the division of labour. You are supporting a vague brand of ecotericism under the belief that humans can exist within homeostasis.


Greed is a bad habit, isn't it?

Positronius said:
that is wrong. Humans are constantly evolving. Evolution means change, not static. How do things change? through technology and thought. Each factor is recipricol, our intelligence creates technology, and our technology gives us the ability to develop higher levels of intelligence and knowledge.


Evolution does mean change... do you think the genetics of this species would stagnate based on a lack of excessive technology? Honestly, is this what you are implying? We *NEED* technology to evolve and learn? That is absurd. Other animals seem to be doing just fine at this whole evolution process without checking out "Must See TV" on NBC...

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2175538 -

ToiletDuk said:
Sad to say, but life and reality usually "cures" idealists.

Not that I'm saying idealism is necessarily a bad thing. :smile:


What if the beliefs right now are simply idealistic? An ideology formed to create a "reality" based on consensual agreement? Could not an idealist viewpoint eventually become the reality?

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175572 -

Convert an Idealist?

to what?

Another ideology? yours, perhaps?

certainly you dont claim to see the world as it really is. Who does?

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2175588 -

EXACTLY. An idealist is the same as a realist... the only difference is a "realist" has the majority to corroborate with his BELIEFS. This whole thread is based on imposing conformity... I mean, just the name of it, "Can I convert an idealist?" Wait.. CONVERT? Yes, your beliefs are just as dogmatic as a religion...

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2175677 -

ergot - We *NEED* technology to evolve and learn? That is absurd. Other animals seem to be doing just fine at this whole evolution process without checking out "Must See TV" on NBC...

---come on man, when I say technology I dont mean Television. Do you think humans would be able to achieve complex levels of knowledge --- like physics and engineering without a written language? we need technology to develop our thoughts, that is a fact. You cannot achieve what we have in the modern world without putting pen to paper.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175678 -

ergot: An idealist is the same as a realist...

no thats very incorrect, think it through a little more. Realists understand that their ideology is not objective truth, and that other people's ideologies are as equal as theirs, so they solve problems through political means. An idealist thinks that their ideology is the correct way.

very different train of thought


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175701 -

Positronius said:
ergot - We *NEED* technology to evolve and learn? That is absurd. Other animals seem to be doing just fine at this whole evolution process without checking out "Must See TV" on NBC...

---come on man, when I say technology I dont mean Television. Do you think humans would be able to achieve complex levels of knowledge --- like physics and engineering without a written language? we need technology to develop our thoughts, that is a fact. You cannot achieve what we have in the modern world without putting pen to paper.


And what has physics and engineering truly developed? Honestly... we work 9-5 a day for money... depression is on the rise... ADD/ADHD... divorce rates at an all time high... damn, we are truly becoming such a great species!

I'm not sure I deem written language a technology... when we communicate orally, is that technology? Minimalistic technology is what I am really implying any ways... not the technology that is bent on getting you the smallest cell phone you CAN'T afford...

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2175703 -

Positronius said:
ergot: An idealist is the same as a realist...

no thats very incorrect, think it through a little more. Realists understand that their ideology is not objective truth, and that other people's ideologies are as equal as theirs, so they solve problems through political means. An idealist thinks that their ideology is the correct way.

very different train of thought


Solving problems through political means? That sounds idealistic to me.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2176391 -

no, you misunderstand. Im talking about the political process, the process of - meeting people with different opinions, talking things over, discussing what is best for everyone.

and yes, written language is definitly a form of technology, and so is a book, and so is a computer disk. What have physics given us? well, for one - a better understanding of our universe. The computer you are using is a result of engineering. Depression is not a result of technology, its the result of a lack of willpower on the individuals behalf.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2176417 -

Positronius said:
no, you misunderstand. Im talking about the political process, the process of - meeting people with different opinions, talking things over, discussing what is best for everyone.


You will NEVER arrive at what is best for every one, like I said... your political process is still idealistic... at least the homeless man's plan would fix a lot of apparent problems in one swift blow.

Positronius said:
and yes, written language is definitly a form of technology, and so is a book, and so is a computer disk. What have physics given us? well, for one - a better understanding of our universe. The computer you are using is a result of engineering. Depression is not a result of technology, its the result of a lack of willpower on the individuals behalf.


A lack of will power? What triggers that lack of will power? A lust for social acceptance? A thrist for a new car? A feeling of hopelessness at the workplace? The widespread depression now apparent is created from factors of our "realist" society.

And physics has given us a better understanding of our universe? Well, to me, I think we are just as clueless as we ever have been... but now coporations have more knowledge to create even more shiny new toys to tempt us with...

Okay, well... if written language is technology, so is all of Picasso's paintings... or at least that's what it seems like to me. A pictographic message. The book, with its bindings and paper made from natural resources is a bit of technology obviously, and so is a computer disk that stores information... but written language still does not apply to that category in my opinion.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2176428 -

ergot: You will NEVER arrive at what is best for every one, like I said... your political process is still idealistic... at least the homeless man's plan would fix a lot of apparent problems in one swift blow.

----yeah, I never said you would arrive at what is best for everyone, nor would I want it to, I dont really care about the neo-nazi agenda, or a pedophiles perspective.

ergot: I think we are just as clueless as we ever have been...

---I dont know, I think scientific knowledge comes in pretty handy, it would have sucked to live during a time where people with mental illnesses were treated like animals because doctors didnt know what was wrong with them.

ergot: technology, so is all of Picasso's paintings...

yes of course it is, the canvas, the paint, all of that evolved from primitive rock carving. Now we have film, cd's and photographs. All beautiful forms of technology that make our lives more enjoyable.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2176434 -

Positronius said:
ergot: You will NEVER arrive at what is best for every one, like I said... your political process is still idealistic... at least the homeless man's plan would fix a lot of apparent problems in one swift blow.

----yeah, I never said you would arrive at what is best for everyone, nor would I want it to, I dont really care about the neo-nazi agenda, or a pedophiles perspective.



So, what's the point? I'm not sure why you raise up the issue of politics, then... if the system that doesn't appeal to every one, is the same system now dominating our lives, ruining our environment, and giveing us a 2nd-rate human experience... why would we ever choose to support it? I consider it now only even helping a minority of people (the wealthy).

Positronius said:
ergot: I think we are just as clueless as we ever have been...

---I dont know, I think scientific knowledge comes in pretty handy, it would have sucked to live during a time where people with mental illnesses were treated like animals because doctors didnt know what was wrong with them.


I already talked about the wonders of medicine in a previous post... but to add something here, we are only animals...  :smirk: but to treat a person as a person doesn't require science, it requires compassion.

Positronius said:
ergot: technology, so is all of Picasso's paintings...

yes of course it is, the canvas, the paint, all of that evolved from primitive rock carving. Now we have film, cd's and photographs. All beautiful forms of technology that make our lives more enjoyable.


Point well made... about PAINTINGS. I was wrong there, but written language requires none of those things.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: ergot]
    #2176562 -

ergot-So, what's the point?

well, the point is, to supply the majority with the ability to be happy and free, thats the point, and in order to do this you need a complex economic system.

ergot- why would we ever choose to support it?

well, I enjoy health care, I enjoy being able to use rapid transit, I enjoy alot about infrastructure, most importantly the ability to buy food at a cheap price so I dont have to spend my life growing my own food - so I can pursue my own interests.

ergot- but to treat a person as a person doesn't require science, it requires compassion.

yes but to further our ability to understand the human mind does require science, and it is this understanding that can provide the tools to necessitate that compassion.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2177075 -

Convert an Idealist?

to what?

Another ideology? yours, perhaps?

certainly you dont claim to see the world as it really is. Who does?


Read the post. I want to convert an idealist to someone who can realize his goals through pragmatism. Maybe there are better ways to create his vision than telling everybody to quit their jobs and give up everything they want ie: computers and other comfortable technology. I propose a step-by-step approach using the system that's already in place. I would like to see him have some successes and feel good about himself by creating real change that we can all see. This might even *gasp* involve him training to be a civic planner or get a job to raise money to promote his cause.

As opposed to sitting on the street with a sign.

and giveing us a 2nd-rate human experience

some would call this a first rate human experience. what you fail to acknowledge is other people's opinions.. that getting a car and buying clothes at the gap and working 9-5 is a good existence. An idealist believes other's opinions on what a good life is to be wrong. I suggest you open your mind to the world around you, but be careful, you may not like having to acknowledge the common humanity between you and the cell phonies. I suggest compassion instead of seeing your fellow man as a weakness holding back the human race from your lofty goals for us all (instead of a better species, we are keeping it weak. )

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2193915 -

"that getting a car and buying clothes at the gap and working 9-5 is a good existence"

lots of people enjoy a green plastic world. Why do people expect everyone to be such independant thinkers? conformity is comfortable. You dont have to think about problematic thoughts, you just accept the culture put forth by your society.

mmmmmmm

get a stable job, a decent car, fall in love, have sex, have babies, learn how to cook dinner, celebrate holidays, listen to pop music, go for drinks on the weekend. Build a family within your community. One day you have grandkids, spoil them.

its nice for some people to have everything laid out before them. Not everyone is up to being an independant spiritual warrior.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2194932 -

So I was chatting the other day with him.. He has little to no gardening experience, as I suspected. His idea that we can all easily grow lots of food together without doing any work is based on a lot of assumptions on how easy it is to grow food. I'm going to suggest to him that as a way for him to promote his ideals, he studies gardening for the next few months, and when spring hits, he can go somewhere where nobody will tell him to get off their land, and build a garden where he will live and feed himself all year.

If he's successful, then I'd be very impressed and so would lots of people especially after he makes a story out of himself and shows other people what can be done. This would further his cause more than sitting on the street, because people would be inspired by him and see him as a leader of a movement, which in some ways, whether he acknowledges it or not, he is.

If he fails, then he'll be reinforced to reevaluate his idealism and find a more pragmatic approach and goal, one that would inevitably sit well with more people and therefore be more realistic (and democratically supported).

I wonder if he'll accept the challenge..

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2195470 -

You can be an independant thinker and have a 9-5 job and buy clothes at the Gap.

Is it possible to think independantly and come to the conclusion that modern society is just peachy? Sure it is.

Of course, the tie dye and long hair set would all tell you in unison that you're a conformist pig.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Phluck]
    #2195549 -

Phluck said:
You can be an independant thinker and have a 9-5 job and buy clothes at the Gap.

Is it possible to think independantly and come to the conclusion that modern society is just peachy? Sure it is.

Of course, the tie dye and long hair set would all tell you in unison that you're a conformist pig.



I agree. Being an independant thinker does not mean you have to hate the system. But it does mean your eyes will be open to its flaws.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: sirreal]
    #2196650 -

The funny thing is.. if all you do is sit around and talk about how everybody is a slave to the system, then aren't YOU also a slave to the system even if you've renounced money, jobs, and disposable paper products? The whole idea of somehow being separate from the system is pretty ridiculous.

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2204451 -

if the idea of a system dominates your thoughts, then you are slave to it.

thus the anarchist is more of a slave than the thoughtless janitor.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Can I convert an idealist? Reality thread! [Re: Positronius]
    #2204705 -

well, to use the terms "idealism" and "realism" in their philosophic/metaphysical/epistemic sense, not the conventional sense, I'd say that realism doesn't have a case against idealism. really you need to suppose an apperence beyond this reality to justify concepts like free will and value (right/wrong).

so... the realist says "this is it" and the idealist says "no it's not, you just can't see the consequences directly". god doesn't appear to punish evil in this reality, and yet for something to be wrong it must have consequence - something to do with the state of ourselves, our souls, our minds, all immaterial ideal concepts.

so... the hippie is an extreme version of an epistemic idealist, but an idealist need not be a hippie... conventionally, an idealist can be realistic.

so within my idealism, I think we are justified in changing society to nurture ideal concepts that aren't directly apparent. yes, that means I'd rather not get a job and I'd steal a rich man blind if I have the chance. that means I don't consider this... shit... to be really real. it's a fucktrap that we're stuck in, but the ideal exists REALLY and that's why it's a fucktrap. if the ideal wasn't real there'd be no value.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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