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InvisibletrendalM
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Reality as a set of abstractions
    #2488966 - 04/01/04 01:06 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Well this is a rather silly theory I came up with once after a hard mushroom trip. I supply it here in the hopes that it stimulates a few minds :wink:


I thought about what I consider "reality"...and what it is made of. Science is very fundamental in its search...in that it is mostly concerned with the "fundamentals" behind a given system. What is metal made of, science would ask. It would then turn to molecules and atoms which this thing we call "copper" is "really made from". Those atoms, in term, science says are made of even smaller more fundamental particles. And so on...

Is this habitually overlooking of the whole?

Think (as I did):

The most basic constituent of everything in existence surely lays in the quantum realm. It's processes are that of the quantum world. If you take enough of the quantum world together, it becomes more convenient for us to look at it as chemical in nature. Chemistry is an abstracted form of the quantum world. Things can be done "in chemistry" that are not possible in the purely quantum reality. Chemisty adds-on to the existence formed by the quantum set, and the chemistry set contains the quantum set as a subset.

Biology, then, is an abstracted form of chemistry. There are things in biology which appear to be impossible in the purely chemical world. We can describe life in terms of chemistry...yet it is much more convenient to talk about biology. Just as it is easier to talk of chemistry than quantum physics.

Then you have consciousness, which appears (to me) to be an abstracted form of biology. I'm sure you could describe human consciousness as a function of biology...but it appears to be much more convenient to speak in terms of consciousness.

Do we see the progression yet?

My first thought to this, of course, was "what comes after consciousness?"

I don't know, and don't care to speculate just yet :wink:

I also thought about the relationship between each of these "layers".

As the complexity of a system increases, a point is reached where it becomes much easier to speak in abstracted terms - which simplify the subject. Some of the most complex chemical processes take place in some of the most basic of biological processes.

So I thought of a natural progression to the Universe, through time. At first, there was only the quantum world. As systems built themselves (the Universe appears to be a self-organizing system, to me) from the quantum, a point was reached where we refer to things as "chemical". Chemistry progressed into ever increasing complexity...and life was born (biology). Life progressed through ever increasingly complex organisms...and concsiousness was born.

Now consciousness progresses through increasing complexity...


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OfflineFrothytooFlacid
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489011 - 04/01/04 01:21 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

I have thought along similar terms before - just not quite so eloquently. Our relationship to the micro worlds is interesting to think about. Especially when we also include the macro worlds..


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OfflineFrothytooFlacid
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489134 - 04/01/04 01:42 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

It's things like this that give me joy in believing in a soul. It would be quite enjoyable to not be limited to human reality.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489532 - 04/01/04 03:38 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Now consciousness progresses through increasing complexity...




...to create technology.  Without human conciousness, the technology we know would have never come to be.  We are the creators of our tools, however complex.  From our technology we have enabled ourselves to be connected via a means never before possible.  Perhaps we can now connect with those above our atmosphere?  :smile:

I dunno - it turned the gears - this is what was spit out.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: nubious]
    #2489580 - 04/01/04 04:12 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

technology...I hadn't thought of that :smile:

technology can seem, in most ways, simple compared to most biology...but technology is really just kind of a simple copy of reality. a simple abstraction? i don't know.

maybe technology is in the same set as biology right now...but is progressing towards a conscious set?


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489591 - 04/01/04 04:18 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

memes.  A meme is a piece of information that consciousness creates, which is then tested and passed on or abandoned.  memes are like genes, in that they go through evolution and natural selection.  Consciousness creates memes.  Technology is the product of memes.  Technology also fascilitates meme evolution, for it allows everyone to access eachothers ideas.  Consciousness is coming together on a mechanical plane (eg. this thread).  I dunno, those are some ideas. :confused:


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OfflineFiddleMyDiddle
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2489739 - 04/01/04 04:43 AM (13 years, 26 days ago)

Nice theory, made me really think about technology and its advancement compared
to our own (mental and physical) advancement.  With technology advancement
itself seeming to share the same characteristics.

Except, technology seems merely a human abstraction of the whole process.
Perhaps the next step? Born from consciousness's ability to question and create?

While life takes from almost every molecular form, technology is hindered
by its proprietary structures.  Inherently, technology should share the same goal
as the life process then, and reach for its own consciousness.  However, it relies
solely on a human abstraction, until it can possibly create an abstraction of its own.


Ofcourse all the bots I make are pretty stupid....so its gonna be awhile :cool:


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I laugh at you because you're all the same.
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Anonymous

Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2504207 - 04/01/04 12:40 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2505460 - 04/01/04 01:42 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Nice food for thought, trendal.

I think whatever is beyond consciousness cannot be comprehended. Or maybe not quite yet...I wonder if it is somewhat related to spirituality? It appears to be much more convenient to speak in terms of spirituality when describing the topic, but so many vague and abstract terms/ phrases are used. Language can only do so much, especially when attempting to interpret what is next or more complex than consciousness.

Side note: Technology is one thing, folks. But think of the impact of advanced biotechnology...

EDIT: I forgot to mention art...I think it can sometimes better express abstract notions.


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Edited by viaggio (04/01/04 03:54 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: ]
    #2506319 - 04/01/04 06:50 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Ahh, well then :smile:

The way I came to consciousness being the abstracted form of biology is that biology seems to inherently progress towards higher states of consciousness.

On the topic of science not being able to describe/explain consciousness...I think that some day science, in it's future form, will be able to describe everything in existence. It may be a description devoid of human Meaning...but it will still be an accurate description from the relative viewpoint of science :wink:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2509805 - 04/01/04 09:40 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

maybe after consciousness comes the quantum level again. It's like a circle.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Viaggio]
    #2512679 - 04/01/04 11:57 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

... I think the idea of human conciousness developing is a good one Trendal... I think that when humans evolved and realized their 'mind' that it was on many different levels of awareness... so even though humans are classifyable sepratly from animals, there are many different levels of 'conciousness' all within the given system of human 'brains'. That having been said, I think this higher conciousness that some realize is the next step for human evolvement. What comes next? Who knows? Quantum bio technology? i'm sure we could have figured it out had we not gotten ourselves in the situation we have now as humans and society. Realize and evolve! stop 2012!


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2512766 - 04/02/04 12:01 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

what if science fades, and we just know it. What if our brains can process things... like the massive moving brain of science. After all... we formulated "science", we gave it a name, we put things in it. We have made things through science. But its just a name. Maybe we wont look at it in the same way. Words are always changing, people are always changing, science is always changing.

To say that it could explain everything, would kind of rule out the whole infinity issue.

I think "science" is just the observation of nature, we manipulate it and abstract it to form other things. For our own experience. Its in a sense what learning is. When we read a science book, we are reading abstracted information of what we see, and how we learn. weve just extended it out. whats in a name.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2512871 - 04/02/04 12:05 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

When I said I think it will one day be able to explain existence...I did not mean in its current form! Science will, as with everything else, evolve. Either that or it dies out, as with everything else :wink:


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2512931 - 04/02/04 12:08 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

very true!

I think as time goes on, if people continue to live... that they will start to see all these things theyve made into different ways.

:thumbup: good thread!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2513012 - 04/02/04 12:12 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

There's more to come :wink:

Stay tuned for the update: How Entropy Fits In

:grin:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2514655 - 04/02/04 01:18 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Entropy, being the measure of the level of disorder in a system, is always increasing. This is one of the most fundamental concepts in physics, as layed out in the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

So...entropy...or disorder...or maybe complexity...is always increasing.

Fractals and such are a good way to point out the fact that when disorder and/or complexity increase...an Order is produced spontaneously.

As the universe progresses towards ever-increasing disorder, increasingly complex forms of order are produced spontaneously. Life, then, is one form of this order produced. Conscious life is another form, with the added complexity. Maybe the Human Experience, culture, society, and psychology are all parts of this order which has spontaneously produced itself from the background of chaos.

For a long time I have thought about this. Life is inevitable. It did not have to be "created" by any external source...nor was it an "accident" or some random chance. Everything is the way it must be, for no reason other than this is the way the universe works :wink:


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2516595 - 04/02/04 02:45 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Remember that all of this is perceived through the filter of conciousness which cannot be removed.

Reality as we perceive it is most likely an illusion.


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- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2517934 - 04/02/04 05:29 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

For a long time I have thought about this. Life is inevitable. It did not have to be "created" by any external source...nor was it an "accident" or some random chance. Everything is the way it must be, for no reason other than this is the way the universe works




That's a self-fulfilling prophecy coming from a thinking, living heap of chemicals, if you catch my drift. Of course the universe had to have evolved like it has. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be here now, would we? It doesn't explain much, though. The universe's laws may have changed at some point, but have at least remained constant long enough for life to evolve into the state we're in now. They may change again.


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Anonymous

Re: Reality as a set of abstractions [Re: trendal]
    #2518142 - 04/02/04 09:09 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

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