Home | Community | Message Board

NorthSpore.com BOOMR Bag!
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: stefan]
    #1915779 - 09/14/03 05:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

this isn't a catch 22, it's bullshit. calling "Reality" "unreal" is just playing with words.

what you're trying to say in a verbose manner is that you're not a realist. whoopdee do. join the club, man.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Malachi]
    #1915830 - 09/14/03 05:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
this isn't a catch 22, it's bullshit.  calling "Reality" "unreal" is just playing with words.

what you're trying to say in a verbose manner is that you're not a realist.  whoopdee do.  join the club, man. 




Come on, man, miss the point again...  :rolleyes:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGanjaManDan
Blazin' Phatties
Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1916009 - 09/14/03 06:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I believe the only thing that is truly real within us and will stay with us when we die is our conscience...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,784
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Shroomism]
    #1916161 - 09/14/03 07:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, my thoughts are the only thing I can be certain exists and is "real".

"What is Real? If you define what is real as what you can see, touch, and smell then real is just electrical signals interpreted by your brain."

Morpheus said that in The Matrix, if you don't recognize it  :smirk:

I'm hesitant to use experience from drug usage as information in discussing what is "real"...but here's a few thoughts and observations anyway...

After a high dose of Salvia D I had my "reality" completely replaced. I was still in the same physical "place" (my room, my house) but everything was different. So different yet so incredibly real in every way my senses could detect. My computer had turned into a cardboard stand up cutout, along with everything else in my room aside from the walls (which were painted on anyway). I walked up to the prop that was my computer and ran my finger along the edge. I could see the corrugation. I could feel it. It felt solid...real. As things around me began to disappear, any noise or light emitting from the object would disappear along with the object. Utterly real.

Of every other experience I have had on every other drug I have tried, none have come close to the level of realism I encountered.

Was it real? I could barely speak for hours after my first experience, being so consumed with thought on the subject. In fact, the only reason I have to say that it wasn't "real" is that my friends were actually with me at the time and have told me what they experienced (being sober) which is, understandably, quite different from what I experienced. I was on a drug and they were sober, so I differ to their explanation as the "real" one.

I believe that what I experienced came from inside me rather than outside of me. I am forced, however, to accept the fact that at least SOME of the time my senses may not be even close to what I normally have considered "real".

What tuggs at me the most is...how can a "drug" produce such a real replacement of Reality?

I have ideas, but they are not done yet  :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: trendal]
    #1916205 - 09/14/03 08:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trendal said:I have ideas, but they are not done yet  :smirk: 





Just a hint :lipsrsealed:

 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1916354 - 09/14/03 09:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Malachi said:
this isn't a catch 22, it's bullshit.  calling "Reality" "unreal" is just playing with words.

what you're trying to say in a verbose manner is that you're not a realist.  whoopdee do.  join the club, man. 




Come on, man, miss the point again...  :rolleyes:
Peace. 




no, you missed my point.  there is no point here, just dumb speculation and idle word play.  no content.  lame.

you know... some people actually have thought about these issues in a context other than an drug based message board, so spouting "whoa man, like,  reality isn't  real man, yeah, dig it" isn't very "mind blowing" nor is it a very "deep" point to be missed. 

you guys just do too many drugs and not enough actual thinking.

in an attempt to inject some actual content in an otherwise circle jerking thread...

on one "knows" what reality is.  there are, however, 2 different speculative approaches to try to get a handle on "it".  they are realism (aka science) and there is phenomenology.  the first position denies cartesian dualism, appearance/ reality, in that the realist (the scientist) assumes that at some level, in some perception, reality is as it appears - that it can be measured, understood, that  reasons can be found for why things are - even our awareness. 

the phenomenologist (idealist? clarification on this issue would be appreciated), on the other hand, acknowledges only the phenomenon, the sensory experience  as such, while refusing to draw primary conclusions, as the mechanism by which reality works is not  apparent, but hidden.  that, to me, is why these drugs we use are important, because there is the possibility of these two outlooks of meeting and even perhaps agreeing on a primitive level.

or at least that's the way I understand it, but I'd like to have any issues that I misunderstand to be corrected/ clarified.

please, no "dood, you don't get it man, everything isn't REAL man, it's like that one story by that plato dude, the allegory of the chained up doods" type pop philosophy drug induced tripe.



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Malachi]
    #1916374 - 09/14/03 09:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You can measure and understand (attempt to) just about anything, real or imagined. That 9-5 job...not real. Those stresses of everyday life.. don't matter. In the end, it's what your consciousness gains in wisdom from those experiences.

When you die, what car you were driving will be obsolete.

There's no solid definition of what 'real' is. Can you touch it? See it? Then it must be real right? What if it's an illusion? How can you differentiate?

Physical reality is real enough.. but only temporary.
Consciousness... spirit... is eternal and forever.

Life is a learning ground and a cosmic game, don't take it so seriously.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Shroomism]
    #1916393 - 09/14/03 09:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you just walked right into the hole malachi is trying to warn people about.
nice one.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: mr crisper]
    #1916404 - 09/14/03 09:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yes
Like dude... it's not real...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Shroomism]
    #1916978 - 09/15/03 01:08 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
You can measure and understand (attempt to) just about anything, real or imagined. That 9-5 job...not real. Those stresses of everyday life.. don't matter. In the end, it's what your consciousness gains in wisdom from those experiences.

When you die, what car you were driving will be obsolete.

There's no solid definition of what 'real' is. Can you touch it? See it? Then it must be real right? What if it's an illusion? How can you differentiate?

Physical reality is real enough.. but only temporary.
Consciousness... spirit... is eternal and forever.

Life is a learning ground and a cosmic game, don't take it so seriously.




I really don't think that most people's problems stem from taking life's responsibilities too seriously, in fact it's quite the opposite (especially in the drug subculture). that 9-5 is what puts food on the table, what takes care of kids, and what teaches one of the hardest and most valuable of lessons: how to work, how to be goal oriented.

as for distinguishing reality from appearance.. aka cartesian dualism... that is the most important and primary task of the warrior. so to just say "it's all fake" is rather short sighted, it isn't all fake, and it isn't all real- hence the problem.

I don't agree that "life is a game". life is more than a game, it is joy, contentment, love, and purpose. come on man, you can do better than this.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineTaoinShrrom
The Action inInaction

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 98
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Malachi]
    #1917222 - 09/15/03 02:34 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There is more to the reality debate then realism/idealism. You can have a lot of subtle graying of the two extremes. I think an interesting study of a resolution to this conflict is Kant?s Critique of Pure Reason. Kant took Descartes dualism and exaltation of a priori knowledge and clashed it nicely with the seemingly impenetrable Newtonian physics. Toss in some Hume and his logical proof against Induction and you had the seemingly devastating philosophical paradox of how ?real? knowledge could ever be obtained in a world of appearance. Kant?s problem turned out to be bordering on a pseudo-problem when the Newtonian dominance came crashing down. Out of that devastation the two camps of realism and idealism sort of re-emerge with slightly done up new version. You have a sort of Quine and Kuhn view which purports there can be no demarcation between truth and reality and metaphysical propositions. And a Bohr and Wittgenstein inspired view of instrumentalism and pragmatism. Which is pretty much truth=usefulness and all of science and math become slaves to production, and other problems are purely ?pseudo-problems? and ?meaningless verbiage.?

So prior to Einstein, you have people claming there is no ?reality? only appearances but then this clashes with Newton (or Euclid if you need to go back further) who seem to be able to derive ?truth? from only appearance. Kant?s great solution was that we as individuals impose truth on nature through our rational filters. This is Kant?s transcendental idealism (which is neither transcendental nor idealistic). Einstein shows that neither Euclid nor Newton can be taken as absolute knowledge. And as such a lot of the old ?reality is only appearance and there is no reality? crowd can resurrect all the ideas of the past. Your rationalist and realist also seem to flounder around and seem to settle on instrumentalism as an avenue for saving empiricism.

Once again I think it took a great thinker to arrive at a compromise between these views. I take this as Karl Popper who was actually quiet influenced by the other hero of my story Kant. The Popperian compromise is to both eliminate induction and absolute truth from our knowledge. He develops this idea of conjecture and refutation, which the details get WAY outside the range of this discussion. But essentially I think he proves quiet adequately that ideas can be proven false, and as such there is a corresponding ?truth? to be discovered, even if we can never know that truth, or if we do we can never be sure of it. There is a ?real? fundamental truth that can be compared against false ideas through observed reality and sense perception. So I think the problem of the realness of reality can be summed up as ?there is something real and tangible, but we can never know it for absolute certainty but we can get closer to it by knowing what is false.?

Or as someone far more wise than I once said:

But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor will he know it; neither of the gods,
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it;
For all is but a woven web of guesses.

- Xenophanes


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Malachi]
    #1917477 - 09/15/03 07:26 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
no, you missed my point. there is no point here, just dumb speculation and idle word play. no content. lame.




In your opinion, that is.. I myself found content! Then again, I have had some of the same conclusions myself and what he said rang true to me. You need to start using that phrase "I think" before you say stuff like "no content, lame, and about everything else you say..."

Quote:


you know... some people actually have thought about these issues in a context other than an drug based message board, so spouting "whoa man, like, reality isn't real man, yeah, dig it" isn't very "mind blowing" nor is it a very "deep" point to be missed.




Maybe it didn't blow your mind, but it got me thinking.. and maybe some people think that it is a VERY deep point! Who are you to speak for the rest of us?

Quote:


you guys just do too many drugs and not enough actual thinking.




Hhmm.. haven't done any drugs for at least two months now.. and not enough actual thinking? So, when I have a thought, it isn't me ACTUALLY thinking. So, now tell me, when you think, it IS actually thinking? I never knew that there was a right and a wrong way to think.

Quote:


no one "knows" what reality is.




Maybe because reality isn't real...

I agree with you, what you are saying about the two different sides merging into one... It would encompass both worlds and provide far more effective in our growth and understanding. Of course, there are still areas that one covers that the other can't possibly have jurisdiction in, so there would have to be a symbiotic relationship between the two.. one couldn't swallow the other and then rule all.

Quote:


please, no "dood, you don't get it man, everything isn't REAL man, it's like that one story by that plato dude, the allegory of the chained up doods" type pop philosophy drug induced tripe.





That tripe seems to make sense to me. Everything that we see and experience, test with science, we might find real, but that doesn't mean that everything we see is just a shadow on the wall... We could all be dreaming right now...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 10 days, 21 hours
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Shroomism]
    #1917623 - 09/15/03 10:05 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"is the thought of a unicorn a real thought?"
(& apologies to robert anton wilson...)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleLeonopoly
Stranger

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 24
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: stefan]
    #1920677 - 09/16/03 06:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Reality is what you make of it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Shroomism]
    #1923805 - 09/17/03 01:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Reality is in the eye of the beholder.


If you believe it's real- It's real. :tongue: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Murex]
    #1923826 - 09/17/03 01:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Reality is in the eye of the beholder...If you believe it's real- It's real."

So can I extrapolate from there that there is no external "reality," or even "anything?" This is all "mind?"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Strumpling]
    #1924227 - 09/17/03 04:59 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
So can I extrapolate from there that there is no external "reality," or even "anything?" This is all "mind?"




If you want to, sure, go ahead, but I must add that I myself wouldn't want to...

You could definitely program your mind to not recognize any sort of external input.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 16 years, 24 days
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: Strumpling]
    #1924293 - 09/17/03 05:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So can I extrapolate from there that there is no external "reality," or even "anything?" This is all "mind?"




I'm a firm believer in "maya". Basically if conscious beings weren't here to percieve reality,the universe would not "exist". The mind creates all things.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: monoamine]
    #1924296 - 09/17/03 05:40 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:
I'm a firm believer in "maya". Basically if conscious beings weren't here to percieve reality,the universe would not "exist". The mind creates all things.




But only for that person. The reality that most everyone experiences has been ingrained into everyone so much that it is hard for it not to exist.. would it be here if we were not, or we believed in something else?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 1,457
Loc: Comfy chair in my lounger...
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Reality isn't real [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1975273 - 10/03/03 08:42 AM (18 years, 20 days ago)

My view is that nothing and everything is real. I think you need to differentiate things and events from the meaning placed upon them - that is sensory based observations and descriptions of what we perceive versus the interpretations and attributions imposed on them.
We can agree on the existence and dimensions of particular things and that changes occur within and between things in time etc. Though in the interpretation and ascription of meaning to those events, vast differences occur. For example someone smiles. Everyone would agree that the person's lips moved in a particular way and at a certain point in time and maybe in a chronological relation to other events. Though people may differ in the selection and highlighting of what things and events are considered to be significant to determining why the person smiled. I am aware of a psychology experiment where two lecturers had an argument in a lecture theatre and all the students had to write a description of what happened. Apparently no description was the same, eg. some people blamed one lecturer, others blamed the other and some people gave a more balanced attribution of blame and different people assigned different importance to different events related to the argument.

Meaning that is ascribed to experience has been scientifically shown to be influenced by many, many things. These include mood, recent experience (what is salient), important past experiences, your pet beliefs and theories, sex, cultural and family influences and even room temperature.

Brian Cade explains it this way:

"In any given situation there are potentially limitless facets of the total gestalt of externally and internally derived experiences that can serve to recreate the original conditions that can cause a whole range of memories and associations to be "recovered". Which of these facets of experience become highlighted at any particualar time against the huge backdrop of potential associations depends on the particular conscious or less conscious concerns occupying us at that point in time.

Our particular concerns, the particular focuses derived from our frameworks for applying meaning, will through intensification separate out certain features or aspects of experience from the implicit or pentential richness of associations possible. As pattens of association become established in a particular way, so they will tend to influence the processing of subsequent experience"

The fact that a model or belief framework is adequate does not mean in any absolute sense that it is somehow true or nearer to an abslute "truth" that some other adequate model. Therefore we should believe in nothing and anything at any time! And it can be said that attributed meanings are only more or less useful or functional.

This theory is the basis for a lot of modern psych therapies. Most disorders can be treated by getting people to find evidence from thier experience against non-functional beliefs and to negate or decatastrophise (neutral) events.


--------------------
Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* ESSAY:Psychedelic induced mystical experiences by Alan Watts tekramrepus 2,401 6 03/21/03 01:43 PM
by pattern
* reality theory
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
1stimer 6,983 92 10/05/02 11:59 PM
by Calen
* Accepting Reality
( 1 2 all )
Grav 1,929 32 11/11/02 06:30 PM
by FreakQlibrium
* Subjective v. Objective Reality
( 1 2 all )
Joshua 3,983 24 01/31/03 09:31 PM
by Joshua
* Reality Is Alive
( 1 2 all )
pattern 4,462 29 05/28/08 01:22 AM
by fubuvsfitch
* Objective, real, imaginary... same thing Ulysees 1,436 15 02/10/02 03:11 AM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Ever wonder why this reality persist ? The_Greater_God 1,277 14 09/13/02 12:18 PM
by dogkisser
* TOOL concert is a spiritual experience *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )
Draig 3,708 25 08/07/02 04:24 PM
by DasKomet

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
4,469 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 17 queries.