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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Jesus was communist/ capitilist?
    #716080 -


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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #716543 -

It's my understanding that Jesus was a pacifist. The principle of pacifism in it's most pure form is opposed to any form of coercion. With this in mind, it would be antithetical for a pacifist to support any communist system that did not rely on total voluntary cooperation. Likewise, a true pacifist should be philosophically opposed to any form of state intervention (coercion) in the peaceful operation of the free market. This however, does not make a pacifist a capitalist unless he chooses to engage in capitalist activities.

I do not recall any stories involving Jesus' business acumen, nor do I recall any stories of him demanding the confiscation of property from those who had peacefully acquired it. Perhaps he was a libertarian anarchist.

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #716598 -

Communist.

God = Nazi.

See my email address for proof.


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-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

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:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: ]
    #716599 -

Fidel Castro and his brother Raul said that Jesus was a communist,, because he recruited all the poor working fisherman to "follow" him. Fidel said that, and Raul said that thas why they killed him too, because he was a communist.

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #716600 -

I think Jesus followed The Way of the Leaf


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Namaste.

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #717265 -

Well, I guess if a couple of barbaric assholes said it, it must be true. That explains why Jesus quoted Marx when he said in the sermon on the mount, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." (I'm being sarcastic - Jesus never quoted Marx)

Why don't you re-read my post and try to comprehend the meaning of pacifist? Tell me how being a pacifist can be reconciled with supporting the state sponsorship of confiscation of property from people who have harmed no one?

Consider this, Jesus Christ fasted for 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness. At the end of the 40 days, Satan took him to the mountaintop and offered Jesus Christ dominion over the world if Jesus would kneel down and worship him. Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus responded, "My kingdom is not of this world." Does this sound like the behavior of someone like Castro, Lenin, Mao or Jane Fonda?

Did Jesus renounce the Eighth and Tenth Commandments (Exodus 20:15, 17), which state that "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods" and are ignored by all who agree with communism?

How is it that Jesus advocated the apolitical, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's" (Matthew 22:21), yet some see him as being a communist?

Edited by Evolving (07/02/02 06:02 AM)

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: ]
    #717310 -

Jesus said "Am i not my brothers keeper" which certainly rules him out of being a capitalist. Seeing as most capitalists sole aim is to take everything for themselves and leave everyone else in misery.

Yeah, it's been mentioned for a long time that Jesus was the first socialist.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #717452 -

... as most capitalists sole aim is to take everything for themselves and leave everyone else in misery.
This has nothing to do with being a capitalists, we could say the same of self proclaimed socialist and communists. A quick examination of the history of the 20th century will show that most human misery was instigated by those calling themselves socialists and communists (Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc.) and proclaiming to work for the greater good.


Yeah, it's been mentioned for a long time that Jesus was the first socialist.
Just because something is mentioned doesn't make it so. Can you provide some quotes where Jesus advocated the use of coercion via the State (or otherwise) as a means of obtaining social goals?


I maintain that Jesus was neither a capitalist (he was not engaged in the accumulation or use of capital) nor communist, nor socialist (he was apolitical). His teachings reflect a desire for people to make moral choices. When your choices are made under threats of physical violence (coercion) they are not moral choices but only choices to avoid the unpleasantries of being the recipient of violent action. The foundation of any government (state) be it Democratic, Communist, Socialist, Monarchist, etc. relies on a legal monopoly on the initiation of force. Do you maintain that Jesus Christ advocated the initiation of physical force against his fellow man to achieve social goals?

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: ]
    #717510 -

"who haved harmed noone" United Fruit, the main reason behind the war in Cuba, owned 70 percent of all farmland. However it was a united states business. You think these are the rightful owners of cuban land, and in event of a cuban/american peace process, you would see all this land returned?

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #717759 -

The actual communist philosophy is a sort of Robin Hood government, equal work and equal reward for all . However, the system was corrupted because people wanted to capitalize on it.

Communisim failed because of Capitalism.

As for labeling Jesus, I think he was a nice guy


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #717996 -

Nugs, can't you stay on topic in your own thread?

Edited by Evolving (07/02/02 02:42 PM)

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #718062 -

Shroomalicious wrote:
Communisim failed because of Capitalism.

That is simply inane.

Communism failed because of it's inherent flaws. A few of them being:
1) Incentives to avoid being productive and let others do the work.
2) A command economy can't respond to the needs of the populace as efficiently or as quickly as a free economy.
3) Punishment for being productive by having fruits of labor confiscated and given to those who produce less or not at all.
4) With no ownership (common ownership) there are no incentives for proper management and stewardship of resources, materials and property.

Edited by Evolving (07/02/02 02:43 PM)

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #718491 -

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" - JC
I think in terms of souls, Jesus was a capitalist! He taught us to take responsibility for our own happiness. When he healed or performed miracles, he quite often commanded the afflicted to "forget the past! Pick up your mat and sin no more!" He did not command God to heal us but us to be healed by some action of our own.
Now as to the existence of a true capitalistic society, that may not be a reality but the idea is very close to a healthy way to live a single life or a society in general.
Communism, on the other hand, thrives on the idea that one is owed happiness or at least the basic essentials of such. The entire premise is slanted toward the notion that social institutions such as religon and royality were the cause of unhappiness.


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"New shit has come to light..."

Edited by GRTUD (07/02/02 07:03 PM)

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: ]
    #719151 -

Evolving:
Communism failed because of it's inherent flaws. A few of them being:
1) Incentives to avoid being productive and let others do the work.
2) A command economy can't respond to the needs of the populace as efficiently or as quickly as a free economy.
3) Punishment for being productive by having fruits of labor confiscated and given to those who produce less or not at all.
4) With no ownership (common ownership) there are no incentives for proper management and stewardship of resources, materials and property.

I totally agree with those 4 points. But in true communist form, people would not avoid work, but the way it plays out people wanted to CAPITALIZE on the system so they did not work. I still feel that Communisim failed because people were to corrupt to make it work.

I repect your views man, you are obviously an educated guy and know of the subject to which we speak of as much as I do (assuming I am educated ).


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #719589 -

... in true communist form, people would not avoid work, but the way it plays out people wanted to CAPITALIZE on the system so they did not work. I still feel that Communisim failed because people were to corrupt to make it work.
So the problem is that human nature is incompatible with the system that some believe to be the best for humans to live under? That provides a bit of an impasse.

Therein lies the problem, communism is utopian and unrealistic. It will never function in any society except those stuck in the tribal hunter-gatherer stage (in which case there isn't much in the way of permanent goods and no economy, so communal ownership is a moot point). It attempts something that has never worked and will never work as long as humans are human.

Edited by Evolving (07/03/02 07:42 AM)

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: ]
    #721796 -

Evolving, you make total sense to me and I agree with every thing you posted, and in my opinion the only recent figure in recent history, that came close to fallowing Jesus philosophy was Mahatma Gandhi, funny that the killed him to.
Communism is a failed experiment so is proving to be capitalism.
There is a very good book call "Entropy" where it gives a good scientific explanation why these systems failed and are failing. A must read!


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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: nugsarenice]
    #722390 -

i don't think there is any more space for answers after Evolving's posts

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Re: Jesus was communist/ capitilist? [Re: ]
    #722529 -

So the problem is that human nature is incompatible with the system that some believe to be the best for humans to live under? That provides a bit of an impasse.

Therein lies the problem, communism is utopian and unrealistic. It will never function in any society except those stuck in the tribal hunter-gatherer stage (in which case there isn't much in the way of permanent goods and no economy, so communal ownership is a moot point). It attempts something that has never worked and will never work as long as humans are human.

My point EXACTLY!


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Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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