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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang
    #5063521 -

I have been thinking a lot about these three things, and I would like to discuss something of a breakthrough I have had, and hope you can give me some feedback. But first, I would like to define the above for those who don't know them (people who are used to this kind of thing might want to skip ahead a bit).

Entropy:
There are a lot of definitions of entropy floating around, especially because people started using the word for non-scientific ideas. However, this definition is generally accepted by the scientific community.

Entropy is a measure of the dispersal of energy. It measures how "concentrated" or "dilute" energy is.

The Big Bang:
This theory usually comes in two parts. The first is generally accepted, the second is highly debated.

First, the universe exploded from an infinitesimally small point in space were all matter and energy come from. Over a period of some 15 billion years, the universe finally expanded to the size it is right now. We have observed the universe expanding from a central point, and thus the theory was born.

Secondly, the rate at which the universe is expanding is decreasing, it is decelerating. The only reasonable account for this is that the gravity of the known universe is pulling on itself, pulling back toward the central explosion point. If the mass of the universe is large enough (which we believe it is, since only 10% of the universe is visible, the other 90% is believed to be dark matter, which can not be viewed by any known means), this collapse will result in an ultra massive black hole forming at the exact location that the Big Bang originally started. It will suck all energy and matter into it, eventually the gravity will become so massive that it will shrink in size to an intestinally small point in space, the original status of the big bang before the explosion...

The Second Law of Thermodynamics
Now, the second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of the universe is always increasing. Or, in other words, the energy of the universe is always becoming more dilute. This is easy to picture if you look at a star, it pumps out large amounts of energy in the form of heat and photons. This energy is sometimes stopped by stellar bodies, such as planets, but the vast majority of it is dumped into empty space, becoming more and more dilute as time progresses.

*****

However, this is here were things really get interesting. If the entropy of the universe is always increasing, always becoming more dilute, then an implosion (or collapse if you will) of the universe must be impossible, because that would result in a CONCENTRATION of the energy of the universe, meaning that entropy would be DECREASING.

On the other hand, however, there is nothing stopping the deceleration of the universe! There is no negative force outside of our universe driving it to continually expand. The only reason it is expanding now is because of the original explosive force of the big bang.

So really, we are only left with two choices. Either A. the second law of thermodynamics is incorrect (this can't be, as we have proven it beyond a doubt, that is why it is a law and not a theory), or B. at some point and time the laws of thermodynamics as we know them will change, probably will reverse. This is the point when the universe stops expanding, and starts collapsing.

And if B is true, what kind of effect on the laws of physics would it have? Many believe that entropy is how we view time, both time and entropy are always increasing. Thus, if at some point and time the entropy of the universe is always decreasing, we would view time oppositely. Meaning that we would start going backwards instead of going forwards. If you think about it in that way, then is time is ALREADY going backwards?

Here is were I am really having trouble getting a grasp on the ramifications of my theory. Can someone either debunk me or help me out with this? What exactly does all of this mean?


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A Temporal Anomaly

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063667 -

IF there was a big bang, it was not wat scientists think of it now.

more likely, there never was such a thing.

from a standpoint of logic the big bang makes absolutly no sense.
or at least, no one tires to explain it the mechanisms of it.

"First, the universe exploded from an infinitesimally small point in space were all matter and energy come from."

there is no such thing as infitnitly small, beyond the concept that is.
it is not a "real" tangible thing, its like saying "what is nothingess?" ITS NOTHING. NOT THERE. NO-THING. NULL.

"FIRST" the univrese exploded? an explosion is a REACTION.
that means it was not first.
the idea of cause and effect is one of the first expressions//examples of duality.

this notion creates an infinite cycle of regression.
it(big bang theory) is not a theory of creation, nor an explanation of why or how things SUPOSEDLY are.
it is a JOKE. or a trick maybe.

if the universe is expanding, wat is it expanding into?

physics are not explanitive of reality, they are descriptive. they are subjective descrpitions. they are symbolic representations of wat appears to be happening.
they say, "atoms do this, and in this case they do this."
"if this happens, then this should happen(because thats wat we think we saw before."

they do not explain how anything happens.

science, like religeon. is a JOKE.
for the moment anyway.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Edited by BleaK (12/14/05 06:21 PM)

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063676 -

A couple things:

The Second Law states that Entropy always increases on average in any closed system. It can and does decrease for periods of time, as long as the average entropy increases over time.

If the entropy of the universe is always increasing, always becoming more dilute, then an implosion (or collapse if you will) of the universe must be impossible, because that would result in a CONCENTRATION of the energy of the universe, meaning that entropy would be DECREASING.

Not so, in this case. Entropy depends on the current state of a system only - not the state it was previously in.

Think of a box, filled with hydrogen gas. The MAXIMUM entropy the box can contain is when the hydrogen gas evenly fills the box. Now shrink the box down to half its original size. How can the entropy increase when it was already at the maximum? It can't. The hydrogen gas may be at a higher density in the now smaller box, but it will still evenly fill the box - that is the highest state of entropy possible for that box, no matter what its size is. The same should hold true for the Universe as a whole.

On the other hand, however, there is nothing stopping the deceleration of the universe! There is no negative force outside of our universe driving it to continually expand. The only reason it is expanding now is because of the original explosive force of the big bang.

Our most recent measurements actually show the acceleration to be increasing. This has revived Einstein's old idea of the "cosmological constant" - a form of repulsive gravity that only acts over extremely large distances. Others have proposed that the force of gravity itself becomes repulsive over extreme distance scales and that it is only attractive on smaller ones (though still quite large).

At any rate, it is becoming clear that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down at all.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: BleaK]
    #5063711 -

Those are common misconceptions, due to a misuse of words.

When we say the early universe "exploded" we are certainly not speaking of it in the same sense as we speak of gunpowder exploding. By "exploding", we are trying to indicate the incredibly rapid expansion the early universe experienced - it went from something smaller than the nucleus of an atom to the size of a basketball in just under one second.

Also, the Big Bang theory is not a theory of creation at all - nor was it ever meant to be. It is a theory used to describe the very early universe, however it says nothing at all about the moment of creation itself. We can use the laws of physics, as we currently know them, to probe backwards to about 10^-43 seconds after creation...beyond that point our best theories break down and give nonsense answers.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #5063745 -

my musings were of cause and effect, and duality.
my points still stand with the language modifications you bring up.

and as u stated;
"We can use the laws of physics, as we currently know them, to probe backwards to about 10^-43 seconds after creation...beyond that point our best theories break down and give nonsense answers."

nonsense indeed.

AND. my statements on the nature of science and phyisics in peticular have been left unchallenged.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #5063755 -

Depending on the amount of hydrogen gas inside the container and the size of the container... won't the gas group together forming clusters of gas, which of each has varying entropy in their individual systems? Isn't this what entropy is? Increasing complexity through molecular interaction? Or is it the Universe reaching a constant in which the temperature is displaced evenly everywhere?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: psyka]
    #5063852 -

No, the gas would not group together forming clusters of gas. The entropy of a closed system approaches a maximum value.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #5063857 -

BleaK,

If you look at the equation E = MC(2), you can see how energy can be converted into mass and back again. Matter is just another form of energy, just as heat and radiation are. Since energy has absolutely no mass, then it can be in a point infinitely small, at least as small as the sub-quantum level. Then, if a large portion of this energy were converted into matter (some believe God to be the catalyst, those who believe in the string theory believe that this energy came from the extra dimensions at the sub-quantum level), it could then expand from this infinitely small point to a huge point very very rapidly.

I think that an infinite cycle of regression is also a great way to explain how the big bang works, but it can not be true if the second law of thermodynamics is also true.

The universe is expanding into a vacuum, and only inter-molecular forces, gravity, and of course the limit of the speed of light, holds us together. At least, that is how it has always been explained to me.

Trendal,

I agree with your statement about the second law of thermodynamis. However that same law states that despite the fact if an entropy of a system decreases or increases, the entropy of the universe (meaning the system + its surroundings) must always be increasing. So any decrease of entropy within a system must result in a greater increase of entropy within the universe. Since only a vacuum exists beyond our universe, that means that the entropy of our universe must be always increasing.

The hydrogen in a box has a set amount of entropy, as entropy is a state function. However, when you decrease the volume of the box, the entropy of the hydrogen decreases because the matter, and therefore the energy, of the hydrogen inside is becoming more concentrated, more like a solid.

Also, if that box of hydrogen were to allowed to infinitely expand, say in a vacuum (which is what our universe exists in), then the entropy is always increases because the hydrogen can become infinitely dilute as it takes no energy to expand against a vacuum.

?Exploded? ?expanded?, I don?t see how these words are being miss-used, since all an explosion means is a rapid expansion.

Perhaps the big bang theory is not a theory of creation. But besides that point, what I am talking about is the half way mark, the mid-life crisis, of the universe. IF the universe?s expansion is decelerating, this point will come eventually.

Quote:
Our most recent measurements actually show the acceleration to be increasing. This has revived Einstein's old idea of the "cosmological constant" - a form of repulsive gravity that only acts over extremely large distances. Others have proposed that the force of gravity itself becomes repulsive over extreme distance scales and that it is only attractive on smaller ones (though still quite large).

At any rate, it is becoming clear that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down at all.


Could you post a link or something about this? If this is true, then I can put my mind at ease about all of this.


--------------------
A Temporal Anomaly

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Annom]
    #5063884 -

So Annom, how do stars form?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063887 -

The big bang, is happening right now! :smile:


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063901 -

OneWhoHasSeen said:
BleaK,

If you look at the equation E = MC(2), you can see how energy can be converted into mass and back again. Matter is just another form of energy, just as heat and radiation are. Since energy has absolutely no mass, then it can be in a point infinitely small, at least as small as the sub-quantum level. Then, if a large portion of this energy were converted into matter (some believe God to be the catalyst, those who believe in the string theory believe that this energy came from the extra dimensions at the sub-quantum level), it could then expand from this infinitely small point to a huge point very very rapidly.

I think that an infinite cycle of regression is also a great way to explain how the big bang works, but it can not be true if the second law of thermodynamics is also true.

The universe is expanding into a vacuum, and only inter-molecular forces, gravity, and of course the limit of the speed of light, holds us together. At least, that is how it has always been explained to me.



"Since energy has absolutely no mass, then it can be in a point infinitely small, at least as small as the sub-quantum level."

energy is potential. potential is a concept.
there is no "as small as" for infinity.

"The universe is expanding into a vacuum"

how big is the vaccum, and/or, is that vaccum not part of the universe?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063922 -

Quote:
The universe is expanding into a vacuum, and only inter-molecular forces, gravity, and of course the limit of the speed of light, holds us together. At least, that is how it has always been explained to me.



Quote:
?Exploded? ?expanded?, I don?t see how these words are being miss-used, since all an explosion means is a rapid expansion.


The speed of light is not holding us together because it is space itself that is expanding. There is no center, like there is with an explosion; an explosion is not a good way to compare with the big bang theory.

The big bang theory does not say anything about the state before the "bang". It is general relativity that predicts an singularity, but the problem is that general relativity and quantum mechanics fail for black holes/singularities.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: BleaK]
    #5063939 -

BleaK said:
energy is potential. potential is a concept.
there is no "as small as" for infinity.

"The universe is expanding into a vacuum"

how big is the vacuum, and/or, is that vacuum not part of the universe?


Vacuum, at least from a scientific point of view, is not part of the universe because it has absolutely no energy what so ever. Its just nothing, and since the universe is full of energy, it is something. That is why they are separate.


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A Temporal Anomaly

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063961 -

The big bang theory does not say anything about the state before the "bang". It is general relativity that predicts an singularity, but the problem is that general relativity and quantum mechanics fail for black holes/singularities.

Not if the string theory holds true. In that theory, there are dimensions of a certain number, that exist only at the sub-atomic level. And it is here were relativity and quantum mechanics, usually mutually exclusive, meet in a harmonic single equation.

However, I must admit that there are several string theories out there, stating there to be as few as 7 dimensions and as many as 23 or more! And these string theories are at odds with each other. So your point is valid.


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A Temporal Anomaly

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5063990 -

duality is a bitch.
i always end up confused.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5064070 -

M-theory is the newest "string theory". M-theory more or less unified the five consistent superstring theories. It has 11 dimensions.

The problem in understanding and trying to apply string theory, entropy, big bang, quantum mechanics, etc is that we can't understand anything without heavy mathematical tools. Even then there is not a real way to "understand" many concepts; it's impossible to visualize 4 dimensions, let alone 11. It's 100% mathematics and I think most people here don't have these mathematical tools to "understand" string theory. I really don't want to ruin the fun in thinking about this, but if you really want to use logic and apply theories to reality, I advice to start with Newton and Einstein.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: psyka]
    #5064104 -

psyka said:
So Annom, how do stars form?


Yes, I understand why you ask that. From huge clusters that form in gas clouds. The sun does radiate energy though.

I can't explain you what entropy really is, it's a pretty difficult concept if you try to apply it.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: psyka]
    #5064355 -

psyka said:
Depending on the amount of hydrogen gas inside the container and the size of the container... won't the gas group together forming clusters of gas, which of each has varying entropy in their individual systems? Isn't this what entropy is? Increasing complexity through molecular interaction? Or is it the Universe reaching a constant in which the temperature is displaced evenly everywhere?


Yes, gravity does alter the equation in a significant manner. Due to gravity, the configuration resulting in maximum entropy is actually a black hole - there is no object or system which can contain as much entropy as a black hole.

However the gas will not collapse until a significant density has already been reached. For concentrations below the required density, the gas remains spread out and fairly uniform.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #5064429 -

i'm just gonna jump in and ask a silly question...

why is the earth round?

Edited by Schwammel (12/14/05 08:34 PM)

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064438 -

why is the sun round?

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064480 -

its easy to explain why the earth is round...soo it seems

but the sun isn't revolving around the earth.

maybe a giant fire ball spewing forth from the sun into all directions and any excess matter polarized by the magnetic pulses clinging together to form planets.

but why is the sun round? 15 billion yaers is nothing.

its more likely that 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000trillion years ago two masses collided and spewed forth life.

but where dis these masses come from?

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5064484 -

Could you post a link or something about this? If this is true, then I can put my mind at ease about all of this.

http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~ryden/ast162_10/notes41.html

Quote:
During the past decade, research groups have carefully observed Type Ia supernovae with large redshifts (and hence at large distances). After observing dozens of distant supernovae, they plotted the distances (deduced from their apparent brightness) as a function of their recession velocity (deduced from their redshift).

* Result: distant supernovae have redshifts slightly smaller than they would if the expansion of the universe were not accelerated.
* Deduction: the universe was expanding more slowly in the past than it is now.
* Speculation: the speed-up of the expansion is caused by the pressure of the dark energy.



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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #5064502 -

For anyone who is interested in finding out what Entropy really is (it's not all that complicated) I suggest these pages:

http://www.entropysite.com/entropy_is_simple/index.html
http://www.2ndlaw.com/entropy.html
http://www.secondlaw.com/six.html


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5064518 -

OneWhoHasSeen said:
Vacuum, at least from a scientific point of view, is not part of the universe because it has absolutely no energy what so ever.


Not true. Even the vacuum contains energy, the so-called "zero-point" energy. This is a prediction of quantum mechanics, and has been proved correct with things like Hawking Radiation and the Casimir effect.

Also, the universe is not expanding "into" a vacuum which is already there. Nor is the vacuum separate in any way from our universe. There is absolutely no point in speaking about anything "separate" from or "outside" of our universe. All of our conceptions of space can only reasonably hold true within this universe, within this spacetime. A vacuum is as much a part of spacetime as a block of iron is...it just happens to have an incredibly low energy state when compared to solid matter.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: trendal]
    #5064530 -

these masses came from an infinite universe of decay and rebirth.

its just keeps getting smaller and smaller the further out it travels.

and wher did the infinite come from? and wheres the finite?

i just made it up...period. tahts it.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064543 -

its simple...

why is the earth round?

why is the sun round?

why is evrything rotating?

waht happens when these things cease to rotate?

they spin off into a nonvibrating state untill they collide again.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064560 -

why is the earth round?

why is the sun round?

Because that is the most compact (both physically and energy) configuration for large quantities of matter to take on, the same reason soap bubbles take on a spherical shape. Gravity causes all things to fall towards a center.

why is evrything rotating?

Because while gravity always pulls towards the very center...nothing ever actually falls directly on the center. More to the side. That imparts a revolving motion on collapsing clouds of interstellar dust. Look at the way water drains out of a bathtub for a prime example.

waht happens when these things cease to rotate?

That doesn't happen.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064595 -

and when they do

it starts all over Again...

until all the energy is finally expended.

at that point it all ends...

cept for the fact that nothing can end without a beginning...

and that's where we come in.

we go through the same process of birth and rebirth....blah blah blah...

and we can't seem to understand the chicken or the egg analogy

its really easy...

if we did we won't exist.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064647 -

the earth is round becuz its a liquid fire ball moving throught space and time...its mantle might be cool to the touch but its a fireball none the less. and its spinning

when you take a piece of already chewed gum and put it in the palm of yor hand and place the other palm over the already chewed gum and apply pressure, the motion to the gum will make it round.

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5064744 -

it you just applied pressure without motion that would be a black hole.

and they aren't round. holes are just places where pressure isn't as great and the concentric forces cancel themselves out. time and space are on a different wavelength here

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: Schwammel]
    #5068525 -

trendal,

I am sorry it took so long for me to respond.

I wanted to thank you for posting that link, my mind is put much at ease now that the universe and the laws of physics are back in sync.

Thanks for the discussion everyone. I don't know about you, but I certainly learned a lot.


--------------------
A Temporal Anomaly

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Re: Entropy, the Universe, and the Big Bang [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
    #5070163 -

Quote:
Secondly, the rate at which the universe is expanding is decreasing, it is decelerating. The only reasonable account for this is that the gravity of the known universe is pulling on itself, pulling back toward the central explosion point.


Acutally, another "reasonable account for this" is that your statement is incorrect. The universe is accelerating, not decelerating. Nobody knows why, but it has been measured by many different scientists using many different techniques.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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