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The Order Of Things
    #4087769 -

A man rapes a woman and gets away with it, then years later he risks his life to save the life of a child. Shortly afterward, he's convicted of the rape.

Another man risks his life to save the life of a child, then years later rapes a woman and is convicted of the rape.

Chances are the first man will get off easy while the second man will go to prison. This because in the fist case the saved child is fresh in the memory of those concerned.

Is this right?

How about someone who commits a serious crime and isn't caught until 50 years later which usually results in a reduced or no sentence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4087972 -

"How about someone who commits a serious crime and isn't caught until 50 years later which usually results in a reduced or no sentence."

I believe the statute of limitations runs 7 years for most crimes. The exceptions are murder and some sex crimes. Some crimes including rape may have no statute of limitations today but did have a 7 year or whatever time limit in the past.

There was a case of a guy in Salt Lake City who tried to use the statute of limitations on the rape of his daughter from 1985. The statute of limitations had run out long ago when they started prosecuting him in 1999. The prosecution used the distorted logic that even though the crime had occurred in 1985, it wasn't REPORTED until 1999 so that's when they started the clock for the statute of limitations purposes. Based on that, he was tried and convicted in 2002. This is not to say he wasn't a bad guy, but his statute of limitations period should start when his crime was perpetrated, not when they arrest him. If he made it through that time period, and the law says they can't prosecute him after that, then that's the law and he shouldn't have been tried. If they later change the law to rape having no statute of limitations, then those found guilty of having committed rape after the change will not be able to use statute of limitations as a defense.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (04/23/05 09:34 AM)

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4087981 -

Well, what I'm getting at is that someone who did something bad, then recently something good is treated, generally, as a good guy; reformed.

Someone who did something good and more recently something bad is treated such that the bad cancels the good only because it occurred recently.

This doesn't seem fair.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4088020 -

Diploid said:
A man rapes a woman and gets away with it, then years later he risks his life to save the life of a child. Shortly afterward, he's convicted of the rape.

Another man risks his life to save the life of a child, then years later rapes a woman and is convicted of the rape.

Chances are the first man will get off easy while the second man will go to prison. This because in the fist case the saved child is fresh in the memory of those concerned.

Is this right?

How about someone who commits a serious crime and isn't caught until 50 years later which usually results in a reduced or no sentence.


The first man will be probably less punished because people will have the impression that he has changed as a person, that's all


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4088052 -

The first man will be probably less punished because people will have the impression that he has changed as a person, that's all

But is it right given that the criminal, reformed or not, committed the crime and the magnitude of the crime has not changed?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4088122 -

"Someone who did something bad, but recently something good is treated, generally as a good guy, reformed."

In this country at least, people who have committed rape and other sex offenses are not treated generally as good guys and gals, or reformed, regardless of the length of time that has passed since their conviction or release. Most states have a lifetime registration which says something about people and societies attitude toward rape and child sexual offenses. Most people think there is no cure or treatment, ever.

So, at least in the USA, your presumption that time will cure the rape stigma, I disagree.

Now, murder, manslaughter, armed robbery, carjacking, extortion, assault with a deadly weapon, maiming, torture, and other such minor crimes are an entirely different matter. No registration required, no stigma, reform is easy just say "I don't hang with the homeys no more" and you good. Of course, those tats can be painful to have removed. They even have free tat removal for the soon to be ex-gang bangers. How loved is that?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4088210 -

Diploid said:
The first man will be probably less punished because people will have the impression that he has changed as a person, that's all

But is it right given that the criminal, reformed or not, committed the crime and the magnitude of the crime has not changed?


The laws system is a mixture of subjective judging and objective laws, there is definitivley a human factor involved.

I think that for all crimes and immoral deeds (by criteria of harming, forcing, restricting freedom etc.) the end resolution should not be punishment but redemption.
Such redemption would come like this:
The man that has done the deed should realize the weight of his deed.
He should be presented with full consequences of his deed and shown
the nature of his act on examples from his own life. After he has trully realized the nature of his act he would brake the usual cynicism and his honest side would come up, he should then decide not to do it again.
The duty of the society is to close their eyes and forget about his deed and accept his again as anyone other. But most importantly he should become friends with those who were left behind to cry for the killed person.

Hehe...doubt this could ever work in real life, but
this is how I thik that a trully enlightened society should deal with those who do something bad

Anyway, I think the current system is effective in this time and age, it is not humane nor is it helping the prisoners, but I think there is no other way today. We must be inhumane to some extend to preserve peace, we must take away freedom and supress, because today we don't deserve much more than that.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (04/23/05 11:19 AM)

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4088374 -

Diploid said:
The first man will be probably less punished because people will have the impression that he has changed as a person, that's all

But is it right given that the criminal, reformed or not, committed the crime and the magnitude of the crime has not changed?


This one is interesting. At first I thought, the magnitude stays the same, but perhaps in some cases, if all understand and forgive, it doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter because the understanding and forgiveness dropped the weight of its magnitude to those involved.

Now what if all the people involved were in understanding and forgiveness prior to the "crime"? (A stretch in hypotheticals of course" The even may never even have magnitude at all in such a case.

This got me to thinking about the relativity of "magnitude" and how its not objective from us but a creation of ours.

Check this actual case and tell me what you think. It had an affect on me.

A couple had a daughter and got divorced and shared custody. Things came up that looked the the dad may have been molesting the girl during her visits with him. Proof was inconclusive and a counselor told the mom to take the girl and leave the country. A group that deals with this stuff assisted them.

Once the mom and daughter left, the mom was wanted for breaking the law from charges of breaking the custody agreement to kidnapping.

The father never wished for his ex to go to jail. He just wanted to know his daughter and know she was okay. He kept saying if they returned, he did not want his ex o go to jail.

The only people this mattered to, the dad mom and girl, did not want the mom in jail for her "crime". The people not a part of the family who it doesn't matter too, "The Law" would put her in jail anyway.

What do all think of this in light of the magnitude given to crimes and sentencing? Who should be in say of what the magnitude is to the parties involved? The parties involved or the court.

(BTW, the girl is 18 now and will be returning to the states to go to college. The mom has to stay a fugitive and remain out of the country to avoid jail. The girl was grateful to never have to be with her dad again. She was terrified of him)


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4088597 -

It's irrelevanct as to the order of operations... the fact of the matter was the crime was committed and they deserve to be punished in accordance with the fullest extent of the law...

If they get away without any interactions with the law, they'll be that more prone to continue to break the law, and also set a bad example of justice.

They both should be tried in the same manner, with exactly the same punishment in accordance with the laws on rape (which need to be more stringent, as last I checked raping someone is more harmful then using drugs).

"How about someone who commits a serious crime and isn't caught until 50 years later which usually results in a reduced or no sentence."

:shrug: What about them? Follow the same logic, many people change in prison as a result of being confined, some people even find god, and pretend to play with the whole act of it to get shortened times, as finding god leads many to the believe of finding retribution, and further of finding a divine sense of morality....

The point of the matter is, one can truly tell if the person is free from their former crime as a result of their action, and it's much safer to throw them in jail (for cases of harm to others such as a rape). Unless we are to believe that they've committed no crimes whatsoever, or it's proven that they've done no harm to anyone.

--
The circumstance remind me of this Nazi doctor who moved to South America and was helping the locals in his area, and taking care of his community.... well before he arrived their he was part of perpetuation the atrocities that occured in Germany.... are we to believe that they've changed or are better as a result of their change? Or is it that due to the circumstance of the situation that they've conformed their views as they fear the consequences of it? (I forget the actual name, I'm sure somebody else knows it, additionally I forget whether or not the man was caught)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Diploid]
    #4088617 -

My fave was a guy that had brutally murdered two people, was caught and convicted and was in the penalty phase. The judge asked him if he had anything to say and he yelled, "FUCK YOU!" and said he had no regrets.

The courtroom was totally shocked (at his words, the crime was secondary) and naturally he was given the death sentence because he hurt everyone's feelings.

At least he was honest. People wanted him to say he was sorry and had repented as this makes everyone feel better.

The penalty SHOULD be based on the crime, not on the emotional state of the courtroom during sentencing, but that, of course - is just too rational.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Swami]
    #4088641 -

:handth:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4088695 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Diploid said:
The first man will be probably less punished because people will have the impression that he has changed as a person, that's all

But is it right given that the criminal, reformed or not, committed the crime and the magnitude of the crime has not changed?


This one is interesting. At first I thought, the magnitude stays the same, but perhaps in some cases, if all understand and forgive, it doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter because the understanding and forgiveness dropped the weight of its magnitude to those involved.

Now what if all the people involved were in understanding and forgiveness prior to the "crime"? (A stretch in hypotheticals of course" The even may never even have magnitude at all in such a case.

This got me to thinking about the relativity of "magnitude" and how its not objective from us but a creation of ours.

Check this actual case and tell me what you think. It had an affect on me.

A couple had a daughter and got divorced and shared custody. Things came up that looked the the dad may have been molesting the girl during her visits with him. Proof was inconclusive and a counselor told the mom to take the girl and leave the country. A group that deals with this stuff assisted them.

Once the mom and daughter left, the mom was wanted for breaking the law from charges of breaking the custody agreement to kidnapping.

The father never wished for his ex to go to jail. He just wanted to know his daughter and know she was okay. He kept saying if they returned, he did not want his ex o go to jail.

The only people this mattered to, the dad mom and girl, did not want the mom in jail for her "crime". The people not a part of the family who it doesn't matter too, "The Law" would put her in jail anyway.

What do all think of this in light of the magnitude given to crimes and sentencing? Who should be in say of what the magnitude is to the parties involved? The parties involved or the court.

(BTW, the girl is 18 now and will be returning to the states to go to college. The mom has to stay a fugitive and remain out of the country to avoid jail. The girl was grateful to never have to be with her dad again. She was terrified of him)


You can only ask of a man to doe something TODAY or in the FUTURE,
you can't ask him to change the past.
So the best think this man can do is to be sorry, try to be better and try to compensate as much as it is possible.
You can't ask a man to undo the deed in the past since we don'thave time machines today, do we?

So if a man repends today, you have no right to still be angry because with this anger you are asking him the impossible (undo the past). What more can you ask of him than to repend? To suffer?
Why is there more suffering needed? What will that help?

Wouldn't it bring greater satisfaction to the victims if they became friends with the villain, than to see him get hurt for revenge?

Revenge is sweet in the moment of it, but that moment lasts
10 minutes-oneweek(depending on your character), then it turns bitter and you are right there with that pain that you started with.

Forgivness is sweet forever, it does not last 10 minutes nor a few years.

Forgivness is not given because someone deserves it or not, it is just given or not. Many don't want to give forgivness because they feel like the person does not deserve it. But nobody deserves anything anyway, they just get it or not. You can give forgivness or not, it has nothing to do with wheather the person deserves it or not.
And even if the person does not "deserve" it, real mercy is that which gives to those who don't deserve.

A mercifull man is beyond a just man. A just man gives accoarding to what others "deserve" but a mercifull man just gives out of mercy/love


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4088703 -

Your case with the abusive dad and the mom who became a fugitive is not unusual, and many more cases where dad wasn't abusive and took the kids, or cases where dad took the kids. I think it's something like 350,000 cases of missing kids in the US and most of these are the parents. They just don't have the resources to track these parents down, or it's not a top priority unless dad's a murderer or mom is wacked out on drugs and wanted for cooking meth.

What I find most amazing is not that people can kidnap and hide their kids, but that so many do it and get away with it for years. Most don't leave the country like was the mom in your case. I guess these kids don't go to public school lol. But probably a lot do and the mom or dad still doesn't get caught. If they aren't chasing after these people, and the other parent has not a clue where they are, then unless some private detective can figure it out, they stay fugitives for a while longer.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4088882 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
You can only ask of a man to doe something TODAY or in the FUTURE,
you can't ask him to change the past.
So the best think this man can do is to be sorry, try to be better and try to compensate as much as it is possible.
You can't ask a man to undo the deed in the past since we don'thave time machines today, do we?

So if a man repends today, you have no right to still be angry because with this anger you are asking him the impossible (undo the past). What more can you ask of him than to repend? To suffer?
1) Why is there more suffering needed? What will that help?

Wouldn't it bring greater satisfaction to the victims if they became friends with the villain, than to see him get hurt for revenge?

Revenge is sweet in the moment of it, but that moment lasts
10 minutes-oneweek(depending on your character), then it turns bitter and you are right there with that pain that you started with.

2) Forgivness is sweet forever, it does not last 10 minutes nor a few years.

Forgivness is not given because someone deserves it or not, it is just given or not. Many don't want to give forgivness because they feel like the person does not deserve it. But nobody deserves anything anyway, they just get it or not. You can give forgivness or not, it has nothing to do with wheather the person deserves it or not.
And even if the person does not "deserve" it, real mercy is that which gives to those who don't deserve.

3) A mercifull man is beyond a just man. A just man gives accoarding to what others "deserve" but a mercifull man just gives out of mercy/love


1) How is it that you attempt to prove beyond a doubt that the individual won't commit the same action again... as they certainly did in the past. It's not about retribution, it's about allowing someone to have responsibility for their actions as they committed them. Unless we can prove beyond a doubt beyond their rhetoric that they have changed, and will not commit said action again, I wouldn't be the one to willing release them to society and take their word on it.

2)  :thumbup: The problem is still related to 1 though... It's ok to forgive and forget... but individuals must know accountability. In terms of a legal standpoint, if the law is harsh, and if it is easy to recieve "forgiveness" it'll also promote further deviant behavior, as it will be misconstrued to the extent that we can simply be forgived... Think of some Christian mentality, where some Christians (I know all of you have come across this in one form or another) just do acts that they knowingly realize are bad... yet they realize that they can simply go to confession, and pray to god for forgiveness and still go to heaven... It's a farce, although some may change as a result of it, many more will abuse the relaxed laws.

3) I agree with you.... but what is more merciful.... allowing a man that's committed a horrible wrong to someone to be let go onto society without punishment for they didn't see the error in the ways; which could further lead to greater negative activity, and in most scenarios will.... or being merciful to those that were affected by it, and placing their minds at rest, as well as those in society who know of the act that one less asshole is on the streets taking advantage of them? Who might not do it again, but they might as they were so inclined to do so in the begining... it's about accountability, and holding the individual up to their actions, and that's just and merciful.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4088929 -

1. there is no way to prove that, but I'm talking from a kind of a birds perspective. The redemption would involve the choice not to do the deed again. All you can do is trust tha choice.
Trust and acceptance is a gift that we give to that man as a wellcome gift when he enters the community again.


your number one question was asked fromt he perspective of those who banished the guy, I'm talking from the objective perspective outside them and outside the guy


2. I'm not talking about law and government here, but personal attitude between people. In small communities as willages or tribes, such a personal way of dealing with those who doe something bad would be possible, and it is a much more personal, honest, carring and healthier way of dealing with it.

3. That's why there would be the ritual of redemption, perhapse months of sessions involving the criminal, family of the dead, family of the criminal, friends, psychologists, religious figures (in case these people believe in some kind of religion)
All with the goul of making the criminal wish he could make things right again as much as possible.


I'm not suggesting that such a practice should be used in reality,
As for reality, I say let's keep doing what we are doing now, but just change our attitude toward prisons and prisoners a bit, that's all.

What we need to do is change the society, make everyone the middle class, make everyone educated, nobody hungry, and put a high level of psychology knowledge, and a bit more involvment of the collective in upbringing of the child. A child should be rased by the willage, not by family. After such reforms, we would need a lot less prisons, most of our prisoners would end up in institutions (those who are not "motivated" for crimes, but simply enjoy them)
But we can not achieve that in capitalism, It will be possible after fall of capitalism, and god know how long before that happens


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4088952 -

:handth:

We can do that with a more socialistic form of capitlism (in terms of its aim, not it's revenue source). More to the point it is possible through the use of actual capitilism with this "free market" I've read so much about... yet have never experienced in America, as our laws don't permit it. Use the free market capitilism, democratic stances in terms of determining law, and who is the head honcho, and make it socialistic in terms of its aim, (of course with the backing of a constitution as far as the premise and application of law through the use of a constitutional republic)... :shrug: Don't see why we don't take the best parts of governmental forms, and utilize them to the benefit of who the government serves, and not those that subject it to abuse.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4088986 -

The trouble is that all the troubles in our society come from the same source. A criminal and an angry violent cop are one and the same just with different clothes. In time when we will have less violence and criminal acts, we will also have a healthier govrnment, because both sick government and crimial behaviour are from the same dark spot in human nature. There is no specific group of people with that problem, it is simply a problem in all of humanity together.
There is no law that can fix things because this law is made by the same race of people that brakes it, and there is only one race, and we are all it. That's why I say that the sin of one man is the sin of all humanity.
And that is also why I say that change must come from inside.
It's because the bars in the prison that divide cops and all of us from criminals is an illusion, there is no difference, the same thing that made those criminals kill or steal is the thing that makes us lock them there and wish their death.
A real change will come form every individual ,not by any new law, it will came when individuals wake up and look around and decide they had enough of fighting for their motivations, and turn to each other.

A law that is forced and those who disobey it are not two sides in a war, but they are one and the same force in disguise of two oposite forces.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4089016 -

tThis wasn't' about the dad and the daughters claims of being molested. The courts said the evidence was inconclusive though the visits were ordered to be supervised.

This was about the mom who if she is found by the U.S. will go to jail for breaking the custody agreement and taking the girl out of the country.

The girls dad did not wish or want for the mom to go to jail for it and never presed charges against her. The daughter did not want it and never did. Considering those are the only two people the moms "criminal" actions would matter to and they didn't want her in trouble, don't you think it is BS that the state can prosecute anyway and put her in jail when no one thinks a crime was committed against them by the mom?

The mom and some others think she was protecting her daughter.

The point was that the magnitude of the moms wrong doing was zippo requiring any form of punishment by the dad or daughter. Because it may have mattered to another dad or kid a law was set and the mom will get the punishment anyway.

I was looking for opinions on that regarding diploids comments about the magnitude remaining the same.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4089068 -

:handth:

Although it will need to occur at an individual level, the media and the government need to be the deciding factors in this debate as they are the primary proponents which propogates the notions of "well being" and what is just, moral, and respectable behavior, and more so what should and shouldn't be done in regards to individual/national/international conflict....

Or at least with individuals with the ability to influence such, as we have a good foundation for government, the house that is built on it it is just... well dilapitated. (In respects to the USA, although the same is applicable to various other countries)

Not everyone will, nor shall choose to think for themselves, as they've undergone a process of deep inebreiation as a result of societal constraints; which further suggest that it is a good thing not to take accountability for actions, nor to think for yourself.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4089099 -

Yea, but the face of media is amplified face of individuals.
While media does influence behaviour of individuals, behaviour of individual also influences media. Again we have the case where
both media and those being influenced by it are two faces of the same thing in our human mind. So media would help in bringing the age of enlightenment, but also the age of enlightenment would change media, it is difficult to say where does this circle begin, but most probably, like all other circles it does not begin. One thing is for sure, people need to change, and all things that are made by man will change too (including media and politics)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4089342 -

~look to the 60's... if that wasn't an age of enlightenment (in regards to what you're suggesting of higher social order)... then I don't know what is.

Look at how it is portrayed as senseless, meaningless drug abuse and free sex (albeit, a lot of it was) and the deeper message that was part of the collective movement was all but distracted by the government's and media's painting of the picture. Go over to PA&L forums and download the bit torrent "Orwell Rolls in his Grave"... serendipity :smile: but it's there and it is a perfect representation of what I'm suggesting. 

Look the the atmosphere of the shroomery, look at the ignorance in the shroomery... look to all aspects of it, and indeed it should show you that the change in terms of the individuals is already here, it merely needs to be focused. We can change on an individual level and come to an incredible state, and define it to whatever degree we want (enlightened/ascended/transcended/etc...) it is meaningless for an individual to possess the nature if their isn't a venue to share and to utilize said state, and to allow others to gain from their gained insight.

The circle begins when; those that are in direct control of the media, and the government become enlightened in terms of their motivations within their positions.... when (if :smirk:) their is a loss as to the corrupt politicians passing bills for monetary incintives, and instead utilizing their positions as it was meant to be as public servants, shit will change. (didn't mean public servants in a demeaning manner, but that is exactly what they are)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4089389 -

Media can be sometimes rejected...

here is an example..

There are not many TV networks here in Croatia but two of them
cam be used as examples. They are very different. One is national TV and the other one is a new-breed commercial TV.

The national TV has some kind of sense of tradition and dignity that it always had more or less.
So there is a lot of educational programing, culture, kids stuff etc.
The films are usually fameous, but quality film or at least harmfull fun, same goes for series.
The commercial TV's agenda is to please the most basic senses of the viewers to gain popularity, so this commecrial TV puts a lot of action films, mindless action, puts all kinds of bullshit TV shows, like reality shows at stuff, and it puts out "erotic" (porn) films on saturday night. They are atempting to get popularity by directly stimulating the most primitive urges in a man.

For example right now as I am writting this they are airing "kickboxer 4" which is so stupid that It seems like some kind of a parody or something.
It is a film in which there is some kind of place where there are some sex slaves, and a lot of hardcore action, and later a lot of fights between these guys, a lot of blood and death and revenge.
So it is a mixture of a porn and a bloodthirsty beating movie.
All that a red hot male needs in his life, that and some beer.
What more do you want? explicit sex, blood and twisting necks in the same movie wow!!
In the end there is a knife in the forehead too (done by the good good guy) and the guy takes the girl and they f..k happily ever after the end

The national TV tries to give quality programing and promote some human values etc. but this is a hard task because it doesn't sell much, and it is a danger to the ratings.

So obviously a lot of young people are accepting the new commercial
network as being more "cool" or more "sexy" or more "modern"
over the traditional network that airs animal documentaries and ads about children rights.

There is nothing sexy about a documentary about children in africa, or children educational programing, so it is not valued today anymore

No matter how enlightened the media are, if there is just one
media that pleases the basic senses of the people, they will turn to it.

So I think both media and viewers must wake up at the same time
in order for it to work. that's why I think the circle has no begining. In fact it would have to grow out of its center and expand its radius.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4089400 -

By the way, I see a lot of angry and lost people in shroomery, but at least people at shroomery have rejected some faulty things of the past and are ready for making a new future


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4089424 -

:thumbup:

Media, the people, and the government are intertwined. The dominant forces (dominant media) at work need to coincide for anything to come about, as well as having the government placing the same checks and balances that it supposedly contains on itself, on mass communication... will it ever occur? :shrug:

As for the level of interest in the world's affaris... a notion is additionally sold that their is little hope of change, and that it's better to go with the flow and live the illusion like everyone else does... so naturally with what is being projected in terms of the infrastructure only seeking to enforce itself, and only doing so, many people are at odds with their natural inclination, and the one "given/sold" to them as being rampant hedonists (everything in moderation  :wink:) with little moderation as it's tauted that materialism is more beneficial then self improvemen; as it's justified by the mainstream thought (even if at the same time they disavow advocating it; it plays into our form of capitalism). 

I like your take on the begining of the circle... the issue is that their are those so hard at work at keeping their current power, status, and influence that it's doubtful it'll ever begin, unless those that are in direct charge of the situation, see the situation as needing a change (in terms of passive measures of transcending all the bullshit).


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/23/05 06:45 PM)

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Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4089468 -

Don't know, but you don't wait for such things you just do your part.
It would be like saying: "god, when will I ever go to the bathroom?" you just go there. So we all have to start working on it, and I think a lot of people on shroomery are. It's amazing how much influence only one person can have without even being known by many. You can start a chain reaction.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4089483 -

:thumbup: Hopefully...

I dunno regardless of everyone suggesting that we are sitting here on our collective asses doing nothing but bitching/moaning/griping about the situation....

We're doing anything but; Memetic dispersal at work :smirk:... Hopefully we've infected some people, who will further spread the infection... as it's a damn good infection if I say so myself.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4089524 -

You know that film with the little boy and the teacher (Kevin Spacey) with a burnt face?
I hope infection can spread like in that movie


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4089633 -

/has no fuckin' clue as to what you're talking about.

Need to elaborate.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Order Of Things [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4089738 -

guess you haven't seen the film, forgot the title


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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