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Offlinelucid
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Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil)
    #2171269 - 12/11/03 03:08 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Most mystic writings seem to talk about a state
of conciousness where all action is perfect and
there is no right or wrong...
to my ordinary conciousness this seems a bit terrifying.
If there is no more right or wrong and if all
action is equal than these people could go out
and do just about anything that would normally
be considered horribly evil (I'll leave it up
to your imagination to envision the specifics).
How could this be a desriable/healthy state ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: lucid]
    #2171996 - 12/12/03 03:00 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

The statement that people could just do whatever they wanted, is a common response when someone talks about good and evil or morality being a human invention, or rather only a conception of the human mind. We decide what is good or evil, and we do so based on basically what we've been told is good or evil, or because the effects of something have what WE JUDGE to be good or evil consequences. But this statement really isn't an arguement against the possibility of good or evil not existing. it is just a possible negative consequence if that were so, and people believed it to be so. But anyways, first we are atleast in part subject to our environment and subject to the consequences of our actions or inactions, whether you believe in free will, nonsensical limted free will or no free will at all, we endure the consequences of our actions regardless, thus it is highly unlikely that even if we could do anything we wanted based on the belief that good and evil dont exist, that we still wouldn't do that. It would just not be practical, it would be anarchy, and survival of the fittest. But to many of us are scared of that kind of society to ever let it occur atleast willingly. It would take an incredible strong or insain person to act on every whim and be able to endure every consequence of those whims throughout an entire life. Ok so nothing is evil, i'll rape your sister then because i'm horny and i dont believe its wrong, well regardless of what i believe or whether i'm right, you may still get pissed at me and try to kill me. i am aware of that possibility so likely either through free will, or more like because of fear and my inability to cope with that fear, i'll likely choose or be caused by that fear not to rape your sister. Morality and ethics are supremely practical inventions, they helped allow us to survive and evolve up to this point and continue to aid in that survival, but what we choose or are caused to call good or evil is a result of the effects certain things have on us, and our inability to enjoy the "evil" things or hate the "good things". we are capable of making value judgements based on causes and effects so it is probable that we will decides some things are evil,(the things we dont like) and somethings are good (the things we do like) and/or somethings are nuetral. And what we decide is good or bad is based on either free choice if your in the free will camp or on the evironment and genetics if your in the no free will camp. We either choose to make positive or negative value judgements or we are compeled to because we cannot help but do so at this time. Even if it wers some how proven that good and evil were merely mental conceptions it is highly unlikely we would choose anarchy over our current system, and it is highly improbable at our current point of evolution that we could exist in any state other then anarchy if we chose to just do what we wanted whenever and however we wanted because at this point we tend to make very poor choices, but thankfully we have a system that helps keep the side of our nature that we deem negative in check, and promotes the side we call good in our nature. abandoning that now would be terribly impractical, just as we do now we would weigh our choices or be compeled to act in certain ways based on risk/reward judgements and/or cause and effect evaluations. I like cats, if i kill cats that makes me feel bad...(i like them because i am compeled to by prior circumstance and genetics, or becaue i freely choose to, doesnt matter which really)...i wont kill cats, regardless of whether it is actually right or wrong to kill cats. but i'm likely also going to consider the possibility that someone might find out i killed cats anyways and they like cats and they try to do bad things to me or maybe i like them and they no longer like me now cause they found out i was killing cats...hmmm better not kill cats.
Anyways people make statements like this in regards to many subjects especially good and evil or free will. Many people say well if there is no free will and everything was predetermined that people would just stop trying to do anything, because whatever does happen is what was supposed to happen and u cant influence that no matter what you do or what u dont do. But that is no arguement against free will, it is just an opinion about what would occur if there was in fact no free will and we all believe that there was no free will. They forget that even if there is free will many of us would still do what we do because if we didn't bad things would happen that we wouldn't like thus we have to do what we do to keep those bad things from occuring. We dont even have a choice whether or not to do or not do something if there is no free will, we all just do what we must do in any given moment. I suppose that it is possible that if we all believe that free will didn't exist that many of us would just sit down, not drink or eat, shit and piss on our selves and wait for death, but that is highly unlikely. Anyways the point is statements like that are not arguements they are just opinions on possible consequences if thats the way things were and people believed thats how they were. Its just as possible that we could all choose to believe in free will and then choosed not to do shit and wait for death, but that again is highly unlikely.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172026 - 12/12/03 03:20 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

ZenGecko, I am not responding to your post per se, I'm responding to the fact that again you said what you had to say in a really long paragraph.

I wish I could express how badly it makes my brain hurt to read that. Simply put, I can't.

What's too bad is that you are probably saying something really good in all that writing and I simply can't read it.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: Frog]
    #2172044 - 12/12/03 03:30 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

its ok.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172075 - 12/12/03 03:45 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Or, in other words, you won't break your paragraphs up, and I won't be reading them?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172079 - 12/12/03 03:47 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

embrace the zen of the paragraph


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: Frog]
    #2172082 - 12/12/03 03:48 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

the only thing that is certain, is uncertainty
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: Shroomism]
    #2172092 - 12/12/03 03:54 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

What do you mean, "embrace the zen"?


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: Frog]
    #2172128 - 12/12/03 04:17 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

No, no hidden meanings, i simply mean, that nothing is certain, change is the only constant, that sort of thing. In the moment i wrote my original post, i wrote it just as i had to have written it in that moment, and now in this moment i'm writing this just as i must, in this moment. Next time things will likely unfold in an entirely different way, whether or not that will include me indenting more is yet to be seen, and thus is unknown at this time, even to me. I can say i will, or i can say i wont at this moment, but i can never be certain of either, until that moment has past, and i did what i had to do in that moment, then i'll know what was done, but not before then, at best now i could only guess, but what purpose would that serve? if i say next time i will write more to your liking, then dont, perhaps you would be disappointed, and perhaps i would feel bad for having said i would do something then not being able to do it for whatever reason, or i could say at this moment that i will write just as i normally do next time, and u might take that to mean, "fuck you...dont read my stuff if you dont want to" but that isn't my feeling, so why risk suggesting that it is. Either way i actively create the potential for you to be offended and/or disappointed. Better to just be, and let be. If i do that and somehow you are still disappointed and/or offended, then atleast it is equally because of your assumptions or choices as it is my action or inaction, which in my mind is preferrable to me potentially actively initiating one or the other possibilities. Again better to be and let be, and/or react instead of act when the consquences of all actions cannot be wholely known or possibly even understood. Ofcourse the arguement could be made that inaction is as much an agent of cause and effect as action itself, but then in my mind, at this moment, it still seems better to be and let be as much as possible thus hopefully limiting any responsibility on my part for initiating a percieved negative line of causality, because at this moment all i can be held rosponsible for is trying to be held responisble for nothing at all, atleast not actively. My only intention is to have no intentions at all, surely that is better then purposely or accidently through my intentions intiating a percieved line of negative causality, or perhaps that is just as bad, either way at this moment and in every moment i cannot help but do what ever it is i do, and in then end all things are probably equal, and just as they should be anyways, so does any of this really matter? Did you read this?
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172137 - 12/12/03 04:24 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

I can't read that. Sorry. Can't. I'm ADHD. You ask any ADHD person if they could read a paragraph like that, and 9 times out of 10, the answer will be "no". Sorry. Didn't read it, can't read it. I will just simply ignore your posts in the future. I think my request was simple. Break the paragraph up. Maybe I'm just not meant to read your writing. Whatever.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172139 - 12/12/03 04:24 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Oh yah... Perhaps intention, and context are the deciding factors that make inaction or if need be reaction preferable to action. Or perhaps they are equal if the intentions and context are equal, whether that be equally positive or equally negative, in the end its all subjective, thus equally real, or unreal, and/or both.
Sincerely,
you know the drill.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172144 - 12/12/03 04:26 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Simply put, and as stated previously, can't read big long fucking paragraphs.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: Frog]
    #2172294 - 12/12/03 05:48 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

No, no hidden meanings, i simply mean, that nothing is certain, change is the only constant, that sort of thing. In the moment i wrote my original post, i wrote it just as i had to have written it in that moment, and now in this moment i'm writing this just as i must, in this moment.

Next time things will likely unfold in an entirely different way, whether or not that will include me indenting more is yet to be seen, and thus is unknown at this time, even to me.

I can say i will, or i can say i wont at this moment, but i can never be certain of either, until that moment has past, and i did what i had to do in that moment, then i'll know what was done, but not before then, at best now i could only guess, but what purpose would that serve?

if i say next time i will write more to your liking, then dont, perhaps you would be disappointed, and perhaps i would feel bad for having said i would do something then not being able to do it for whatever reason, or i could say at this moment that i will write just as i normally do next time, and u might take that to mean, "fuck you...dont read my stuff if you dont want to" but that isn't my feeling, so why risk suggesting that it is.

Either way i actively create the potential for you to be offended and/or disappointed. Better to just be, and let be. If i do that and somehow you are still disappointed and/or offended, then atleast it is equally because of your assumptions or choices as it is my action or inaction, which in my mind is preferrable to me potentially actively initiating one or the other possibilities.

Again better to be and let be, and/or react instead of act when the consquences of all actions cannot be wholely known or possibly even understood.

Ofcourse the arguement could be made that inaction is as much an agent of cause and effect as action itself, but then in my mind, at this moment, it still seems better to be and let be as much as possible thus hopefully limiting any responsibility on my part for initiating a percieved negative line of causality, because at this moment all i can be held rosponsible for is trying to be held responisble for nothing at all, atleast not actively.

My only intention is to have no intentions at all, surely that is better then purposely or accidently through my intentions intiating a percieved line of negative causality, or perhaps that is just as bad, either way at this moment and in every moment i cannot help but do what ever it is i do, and in then end all things are probably equal, and just as they should be anyways, so does any of this really matter? Did you read this?

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be ...but everything changes, and then changes again.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172372 - 12/12/03 06:41 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Hehehe, we broke his spirit and he created different paragraphs! Yay! :grin:

I read one of your posts finally, man. Good stuff. Just remember the paragaph spacing and you'll have me as an interested reader. hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2172671 - 12/12/03 11:36 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Yes, I read it, and as fireworks god says, good stuff. Do rules apply to your life? Not being sarcastic, but when there are rules, whether as laws or social etiquettes, are you saying you do what you want to do, regardless, because you live for the moment and do what feels right in that moment?

At least I understand where you are coming from on the long paragraphs, and I won't expect you to break them up any more. If you write a big paragraph, I won't read it. If you break it up, I will. But I'll stop bitching at you. At least I feel like you addressed my gripe, regardless of whether you stop.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2172674 - 12/12/03 11:39 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

good post ZenGecko. I did read, and enjoy your insight :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: lucid]
    #2173233 - 12/12/03 05:38 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

I believe that you are misunderstanding the moral nature of enlightened mind. When one's central or 'Master' motive is Compassion [which I usually capitalize because it is considered to be THE Divine attribute of Ultimate Reality in Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism], then one's actions are automatically moral in the highest sense of the word. Morality described phenomenologically in Western psychology by Piaget, Kohlsberg or Lovinger is really useful stuff. There are different 'levels' of morality, developmentally speaking, and statistically few individuals develop completely in the moral domain.

Suppose you walk around the corner of a building and see one person slapping another person in the face repeatedly. The person being slapped seems to be slipping down against the wall. Perhaps the slapped person is weakening from a series of cruel blows to the face by an aggressor...or perhaps the person who is slapping the other is acting from utter Compassion by preventing the collapsing individual from lapsing into a drug-overdose coma by painful yet non-damaging blows until the ambulance arrives. The action of slapping is exactly the same in both instances - both pain inducing - yet the essence of the matter is in the intentionality - the motive underlying the action. It is this Meta-Motive of Compassion that transcends the 'conventional' morality based on a 'pleasure-pain' dichotomy. Compassion is operating beyond that simple 'morality' that pleasure is good, pain is bad. Here, blissful pleasure means death and painful slapping is life-saving.

It is a misunderstanding to read that the enlightened individual is 'beyond good and evil' in the sense that they possess a kind of understanding that reduces all activity to mere 'matter-in-motion' and therefore anything goes. This was the misunderstanding of some Gnostic sects which assumed that if we are really just pure spirit, it follows that anything the mind-body does is irrelevant. This 'antinomian' (against-lawfulness) attitude was erronious.

Acting like a 'Boyscout' doesn't make one enlightened (or 'saved'), rather, being enlightened makes one a 'Boyscout,' automatically. Wisdom and Compassion are One.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2173526 - 12/12/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Thanks for eLucidating Markos :laugh:
good to see u're back :sun: u seem to
have dissappeared for a while.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: lucid]
    #2174237 - 12/13/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

"I believe that you are misunderstanding the moral nature of enlightened mind. When one's central or 'Master' motive is Compassion [which I usually capitalize because it is considered to be THE Divine attribute of Ultimate Reality in Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism], then one's actions are automatically moral in the highest sense of the word. Morality described phenomenologically in Western psychology by Piaget, Kohlsberg or Lovinger is really useful stuff. There are different 'levels' of morality, developmentally speaking, and statistically few individuals develop completely in the moral domain."

I never said i was talking about the enlightened mind. i simply stated my belief that good and evil only exist as human conceptions.

What is good, is what we say is good, what is evil, is what we think is evil, but its entirely possible that someone else could come along and contradict that, so who is right? niether? both?

Also, the existance of good or evil isn't needed for compassion. People are still subject to circumstance, and when someone suffers regardless because of that, and we feel for them, then we have compassion, but there was no good or evil needed for that, who is to say that even the person suffering believed that the cause of their suffering was evil? it was possibly just unpleasant for them, but maybe not to someone else. Its relative.

There are many cultures that believe things are good or evil that other cultures would disagree on, some practices of one culture would be thought cruel by another, but what right does one culture or one person for that matter have to impose their beliefs on the other.
It is true that in some circumstances we must impose our will over others due to the fact that if they and others continued as they were it would be highly difficult to have an orderly society in which all people had a relatively equal chance of pursuing happiness so long as it isn't at the expense of someone else, or atleast not to much so, in the eyes of that society.

"It is a misunderstanding to read that the enlightened individual is 'beyond good and evil' in the sense that they possess a kind of understanding that reduces all activity to mere 'matter-in-motion' and therefore anything goes. This was the misunderstanding of some Gnostic sects which assumed that if we are really just pure spirit, it follows that anything the mind-body does is irrelevant. This 'antinomian' (against-lawfulness) attitude was erronious."

It was erronious? how/who proved this? how/why was it erronious? who is to say they misunderstood? and isn't it entirely possible that it was just a disagreement, and each party actually has an equal chance of being right, or atleast a possible chance?

"Do rules apply to your life? Not being sarcastic, but when there are rules, whether as laws or social etiquettes, are you saying you do what you want to do, regardless, because you live for the moment and do what feels right in that moment?
"

I follow the rules if the possible consequences make me want to follow the rules, also it depends on how likely i am to get caught not following the rules, and finally it depends if i would be ok with "me" if i didnt follow the rule.

For instance i'd never rape someone even if i knew i wouldnt get caught, because i dont want to be that kind of person, regardless of whether the act is good or evil, the fact remains that i made a girl have sex with me who didn't want to.
i had to take what i wanted because i couldn't get it any other way, and especially in that particular instance i think that would make me a fairly sad person, and i dont want to be that person so i wouldn't do it. infact i couldn't do it, even if some part of me wanted to, the consequences and my distaste for them would prevent me. I have a code of ethics that i live by, or try to, and usually do quite well. I have adopted these do to evnironmental(cultural) and genetic pressures. i am who i have to be given the circumstances, and i do what i have to given the circumstances.

Actually everybody always does what they want, it might not be what they want the most, but its what they want that will have the most acceptable probable outcome in there mind, given the circumstances which include possible risk vs reward senarios.

As far as the enlightened mind goes, i believe that the enlightened person is simply one that has abandoned all desire or atleast made good progress towards that. If you can do that then you would be free from all suffering, because you wouldnt even desire to not suffer. At the very least i believe the enlightened mind is one that is wholely in the "now" and when a bad moment happens and then passes, all thought of it passes from that mind, and that mind is focused on the next moment, with no thought to the past or future.

This is bad, ok, move on, this is good, ok move on. They might acknowledge the moment for what it was, but when its passed, its truely gone. But most people will never even approach a state near this, and it is sad that they suffer to those with compassion, to those who know that if only they viewed things differently, or desired nothing in that moment, then they wouldn't currently be suffering. Like most things though there are degrees, degrees of enlightenment. Some people do to circumstance naturally start at or move further along that path. Some people start with much further to go.
I myself have considered the possibility that in part i naturally evloved to a point where i was simply less effected, by things, and had fewer or less intense desires, then i came to a point where i started actively working towards more of that, but even that effort i believe i was predisposed to, and in fact faited to make, i just had certain genetic and possibly environmental advantages that allowed me to start further down the path.
Thats just my theory though, i fully admit that i may be completely wrong or deluded, and often consider that possiblity also... and i do not actually claim to be more enlightened then anyone because of that, infact i am struggling to try not to make any judgments about anything whatsoever. Ofcourse i have to do that given my circumstances and fait will decide what success i have.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Mystics Enlightenment and Morals (Good and Evil) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2174365 - 12/13/03 10:25 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

I follow the rules if the possible consequences make me want to follow the rules, also it depends on how likely i am to get caught not following the rules, and finally it depends if i would be ok with "me" if i didnt follow the rule.





Keep in mind that I'm not a big "rule follower" myself. But I was thinking about what you said, and wondered what would happen if the whole country was full of people who followed the rules only if the wanted to.

Actually, we could get a movment going and then as a result possibly get rid of a lot of stupid rules, like "don't cross over the double yellow lines of the carpool lane".


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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