Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |  [ show all ]
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Rhizoid]
    #8530322 -

One of the statements in the OP was:

Quote:
Don't get lost in it and don't rely on it as your sole source in your quest for higher understanding.


I gave my examples not as a way to invalidate logic, but merely to point out there are other ways of understanding, i.e. knowing, the world.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8530811 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
Logic is just another belief system Cervantes :hug:


Believe what you wish to be true.

Gravity will still keep you firmly rooted on the ground.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8530918 -

Quote:
Veritas said:Logic is not a belief system, as it does not propose anything requiring faith.


if language didn't exist, would there be such thing as a belief system?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: deranger]
    #8531471 -

SyntheticMInd said:
if language didn't exist, would there be such thing as a belief system?


Maybe, but you wouldn't be able to talk about it....    :tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Rose]
    #8533639 -

Quote:
Logic is not a belief system, as it does not propose anything requiring faith.



Logic requires belief in logic :ooo:


Quote:
Believe what you wish to be true.

Gravity will still keep you firmly rooted on the ground.



Gravity is something real. Logic is but a coping mechanism to try make sense of gravity.

take a dinosaur egg omelet. You can logic into the high heavens about what it would taste like, but it can at most only approximate the experience of what it tastes like. Experiencing is another coping strategy. It has nothing to do with logic, but would you say that experiencing a dinosaur egg omelet would be inferior to reasoning about its taste?

Same with tripping. Logic, reasoning about a trip, is an utter cripple in comparison with actually experiencing the trip. After the trip is over, you try to make sense of it.

It WASN'T sense. Sense is what you try to make of it. What it was defied all description, and with it it defied logic.

Like Veritas said, logic is a tool. Thing is, no one tool can do all the job. its important to realize it is ONLY a tool, and with it it has strengths and limitations.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8533983 -

Quote:
Logic requires belief in logic


You cannot believe in logic. This proposition of yours makes absolutely no sense. (Categorical error.) Does Latin require belief in Latin? Logic is a coherent system of symbols that is used to make extremely valid deductions.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8534046 -

Quote:
You cannot believe in logic.



If you use it, I'm sure you believe it will do you any good. You believe it is a useful tool, that it has merit.
of course you can believe in logic, more than a few even have blind faith in logic as being the one and only path to understanding.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8536038 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
Logic is not a belief system, as it does not propose anything requiring faith.



Logic requires belief in logic :ooo:


Of course it does... but now you are just playing semantic games. :tongue:

Still, I concede the point.

I agree.

Quote:
Quote:
Believe what you wish to be true.

Gravity will still keep you firmly rooted on the ground.



Gravity is something real. Logic is but a coping mechanism to try make sense of gravity.


Of course... I agree with this point as well.

Quote:
Like Veritas said, logic is a tool.


And she said it to disagree with one of your earlier posts.

It sounds like you are finally moving towards a slightly more logical thesis... either THAT or I misunderstood what you were saying earlier.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8536539 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
You cannot believe in logic.



If you use it, I'm sure you believe it will do you any good. You believe it is a useful tool, that it has merit.
of course you can believe in logic, more than a few even have blind faith in logic as being the one and only path to understanding.


So then carpentry is a belief system?  Plumbing is a belief system?  Masonry is a belief system?  All of these involve the organized and systematic use of tools to accomplish specific goals.  The same applies to logic.

Now, if you want to choreograph a ballet, you would utilize different tools than you would in order to build a retaining wall...this is common sense.  Likewise, if you wish to engage in a non-rational experience, you would set logic aside for the duration of said experience.  This does not invalidate the use of logic any more than ballet invalidates the use of mortar.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8536747 -

I wouldn't want a plumber working on my sink who didn't believe in what he was doing :lol:

Plumbing requires all sorts of beliefs. The belief a leak can be fixed at all. The belief the water mains must be turned off before removing a pipe from the system.

Logic may not be the best way to come to a higher understanding, just like seeing colors may not be the best way to perceive the world. These are coping mechanisms created by the evolution of life. That does not mean its the be all-end all of reality.

Lets say we spread out among the stars. It might well be that Life still has a hundred trillion years of evolution to go. I'm sure logic will go obsolete much sooner, making way for a far better system.

A good example would be absolute knowledge. All we now have are assumptions and extrapolations on assumptions. A being with Absolute Knowledge, with Total Knowledge, would be like a God to us. Try to imagine it, you will find that every few minutes you have to revise your image of what that would be like, as you discover new aspects of it.

In the light of Total Knowledge, using logic to get by is hopelessly obsolete, and an insufficient coping mechanism in every sense of the word.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8536801 -

Quote:
In the light of Total Knowledge, using logic to get by is hopelessly obsolete, and an insufficient coping mechanism in every sense of the word.


The problem is that we are likely incapable of Total Knowledge, yet we are all incredibly skilled at Wishful Thinking, Fantasy, Jumping to Conclusions & Misinterpretation.  Given this, Logic is an essential tool for comprehending the rational aspects of reality.  Intuition is equally important for comprehending the nonrational aspects of reality, but IMO Logic is useful for weeding out the Wishful Thinking, etc...from what has actually been intuited.

It seems to me that what you are objecting to is the misuse of logic.  To extend the metaphor of using logic to eliminate weeds, if someone uses a hoe to hack down seedling flowers and vegetables, rather than to selectively remove weeds, the result will be a garden of dirt.  Shall we blame this on the hoe?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8536924 -

Quote:
The problem is that we are likely incapable of Total Knowledge



Maybe, maybe not. But in either case we have to take into account that even if you consider logic to be "the best we got", even the best we got might not be good enough on any significant level.

Quote:
Shall we blame this on the hoe?


I'm not blaming the hoe! I'm just pointing out that logic may only get us so far, but no further. It might be a functional delusion - a delusion that can be put to many uses, but which in itself is illusory.

Quote:
It seems to me that what you are objecting to is the misuse of logic.


Thats one of my points also. On one end we got to realize logic may well be illusory, on the other we shouldn't want to rely on it too heavily.

Don't become a prisoner of logic is what I'm saying. Keep an open mind in all things, and the only way to do that is to examine the very core of your beliefs, especially the implicit ones you've taken as a given without questioning them, and factoring in the possibility that even your most rocksolid "truths" may be illusion.

Every "truth" you cling onto imprisons your open mind.

Think outside the box. And the biggest box I see in this forum is the unquestioning blind faith in the validity of logic.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (06/18/08 11:53 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8536980 -

Being a "prisoner" of logic would be illogical.  :wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8536994 -

:cheer:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8537020 -

Quote:
the biggest box I see in this forum is the unquestioning blind faith in the validity of logic.


IMO, blind faith in anything is a cognitive box.  Unless we continue to examine, test, try, analyze, experience, consider, criticize, weigh, sift, and weed out self-induced delusions, our understanding of reality will be limited. 

Anything which encourages delusion is neither logical nor non-rational, but rather irrational and unhelpful to furthering our honest relationship with reality.  If someone uses logic (incorrectly) to further delusion, it is not the fault of logic.  If someone uses intuition (or what they mistake for it) to further delusion, it is not the fault of intuition.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Asante]
    #8537083 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Same with tripping. Logic, reasoning about a trip, is an utter cripple in comparison with actually experiencing the trip. After the trip is over, you try to make sense of it.

It WASN'T sense. Sense is what you try to make of it. What it was defied all description, and with it it defied logic.



Excellent point. The thing about logic is that it is unable to address whether or not we can trust our monkey senses to give a coherent meaning to the universe, which may be a completely incoherent system. As if human experience were the eye in the center of a vast storm. What makes sense in the eye makes no sense in the rest of the storm.

To use a metaphor, I saw a homeless guy the other day. He was stumbling down the street screaming hysterically about demons. Then he went over to a garbage can, pulled out a pile of refuse, and rubbed it in his hair and immediately calmed down. I asked him why he would rub garbage on himself, and he said "I know it stinks, but its the only thing that makes the demons disappear. See? No demons in sight!"

The homeless guy is being completely logical, but that doesn't mean he isn't also delusional. Logic is limited by our senses and our mind and our experience of reality. All we got is monkey brains.

Can you use logic or any other mental process to comprehend infinity? In terms of space or time? No, you can't. So it remains a tool that may be useful to reality on a human sized scale. On a subatomic or universal scale, its useless. But then again, so is every other human system.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537085 -

Quote:
Shall we blame this on the hoe?


I blame the crack hoes for the property devaluation in my neighborhood. :yesnod:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8537127 -

Quote:
The homeless guy is being completely logical


Really?  How did you arrive at this conclusion?  The way I see it, his argument is as follows:

1. (premise) Demons exist.
2. (premise) If demons dislike the odor of garbage, then they will disappear when I rub it all over myself.
3. (conclusion) As there are no demons present, garbage is an effective demon repellent!

A sound logical argument must contain premises which have proven true.  A delusional premise cannot result in a sound logical argument.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537132 -

Garbage in => garbage out.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Logic as a coping strategy [Re: Veritas]
    #8537164 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
The homeless guy is being completely logical


Really?  How did you arrive at this conclusion?  The way I see it, his argument is as follows:

1. (premise) Demons exist.
2. (premise) If demons dislike the odor of garbage, then they will disappear when I rub it all over myself.
3. (conclusion) As there are no demons present, garbage is an effective demon repellent!

A sound logical argument must contain premises which have proven true.  A delusional premise cannot result in a sound logical argument.


Perhaps I wasn't clear. In this story, the homeless guy is screaming because he sees the demons. They are flying around his head. They are howling at him, so he can hear them too. He can even touch them. Their wings brush against his head. Demons follow him around constantly, except when he rubs garbage in his hear the demons suddenly fly away. Works like a charm, every time. His logical method for making the demons go away has been tested and proven true time and time again. Just like gravity, which never fails to consistently keep us rooted to the ground, garbage never fails to make the demons leave this poor delusional man alone.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* epistemology and logic Axiom420 3,315 17 01/16/03 11:23 AM
by Axiom420
* why are there so many loopholes, blanks, and contradictions in logic?
( 1 2 3 all )		 MrBuzin 5,439 40 02/20/07 01:49 PM
by shroomydan
* The Use of Logic
( 1 2 all )		 Veritas 3,204 33 06/12/06 08:02 PM
by fireworks_god
* An example of using the principles of logic.
( 1 2 all )		 Anonymous 3,740 29 07/24/03 12:32 AM
by Sclorch
* Can logical reason take the place of emotional judgement?
( 1 2 all )		 trendalM 5,515 37 06/12/03 02:11 PM
by castaway
* No simple theory can cope with the enormous complexity revealed by modern genetics. TheHateCamel 1,174 9 01/16/05 10:51 PM
by Phluck
* Logic, Emotion, Mathematics, and the Universe
( 1 2 3 all )		 Anonymous 5,725 47 02/23/04 07:29 AM
by raytrace
* Logic
( 1 2 all )		 shroomydan 3,484 34 06/16/06 05:30 AM
by slaphappy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
12,219 topic views. 2 members, 304 guests and 36 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.