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god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge)
    #2595973 -

conditions underminds love...does it not?

i hear this a lot about how we have God's judgement and we need to ask it for forgiveness or eternal damnation awaits.

is it just me or does it seem ridiculous that a being that is so much higher than we are would actually "judge" us. I mean it supposedly created all of this and created us in the process, not letting us know the truth of things. 

why would it need to judge us?

if we are eternal...then why would an eternity be based on just one lifetime? to me that's kind of harsh, especially something that is supposed to have infinite love and wisdom. 

the fact that some say that you have to accept a prophet or you go to hell, thereby putting conditions on its love.  doesn't putting conditions on love, undermind the power and essence of love in the first place? 

lets look at why we are here.  amusement?  boredome?  or just interest? either way hell is a scary place to be for a being that never asked to be born in the first place.  it's like hey, you are alive now, believe in me, not only that, but believe in certain things or burn forever.

i mean this is being here that we cannot fathom with our minds.

give two scenerios:

we have free will:  so it gives us the ability to think exactly what we want and when we want.  and then it's gonna send us to hell if we don't choose "its" exact way. how can a man like my father who has lived a great life, helped many people, and really hasn't wronged no one going to go to hell because he didn't accept jesus or mohammed or whoever. think about it, eternity of suffering for 70 years of living? isn't that harsh to you?    :wtf:

we don't have free will:  in this case we have no choice, everyhting is pre-determined, and so then what I do has or is already happening right now.  in this scenerio, I had no choice but to go to hell.  :wtf:

i mean I was born with logic and rationality, don't you think if "it" exists that it intended for us to use it?? or is this just SATAN talking...

well let me put it this way

"tell me.....what can oppose god's will?"-Bill Hicks


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2596007 -

Even if God could be that cold it seems to me to be incredibly inefficient. Just throwing away people forever who could be helpful in the future seems imperfect which is something God presumably is not.

I think people who see God this way have a need to view him as a sort of Super Parental Figure. "Don't yell at your sister or Daddy will send you to your room." "Don't sin or God will send you to Hell forever!"


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2596014 -

common misconception:god judges us.
truth:we judge our selves. god agrees with the majority.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: faelr]
    #2596016 -

"we judge our selves. god agrees with the majority. "

so now god chooses sides?????


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: Jellric]
    #2596028 -

"Even if God could be that cold it seems to me to be incredibly inefficient. Just throwing away people forever who could be helpful in the future seems imperfect which is something God presumably is not. "
:thumbup:  hadn't thought of that

who's to say god is perfect??


if I have an ant farm, sure I didn't crete the ants, but say I have one.  I'm not going to destroy the ants and the farm jsut because they didn't build tunnels the way I want it.  Instead I would let them do their thing, and observe.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2596089 -

kaiowas said:
"we judge our selves. god agrees with the majority. "

so now god chooses sides?????


he has to! i didn't make the rules....apparently he did!
also, i was talking about the biblical God...i should have clarified.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: faelr]
    #2596155 -

"also, i was talking about the biblical God...i should have clarified. "

:thumbup:

thank you very much, for the input.  I wonder...where does it say in the bible that god goes with the majority?  what did you mean by it "has" to?  I'm not that much familiar with the biblical god, which is one of the reasons I posted to see how the bible followers view my opinion.  not that it "matters"  but I'm jst curious and I like discussing ideas.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2596210 -

Your question is indicative of the problems that arise when trying to make sense of ancient superstitions.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2596816 -

Perhaps the 'Ancient Superstitions' could actually have something to offer us. Maybe deep at the core, underneath the encrustations of dogma, there is true wisdom from a forgotten time pertaining to the nature of the universe.

This whole 'Hell' idea is pretty big. As far as I can see it, the Greeks taught it, the Egyptians taught it, The Hindu's teach it, Muslims teach it, Buddhists teach it, Christians teach it...I would venture to say that the concept of 'Hell' is probably one of the most unifying threads through all religions.

The big difference with the eastern ideas of Hell is that it is not necessarily eternal (though the wheel may spin for a long time).

Anyway, maybe the problem you're having with the concept of hell is that it runs contrary to your ideal of God (God is just, God is efficient, God is kind, God is love...). Maybe your ideal of God is not really God at all. Maybe the real God is mindless and above Light and Dark, Love and Hate. Maybe God (Ultimate Reality) is just a machine that runs off of the flames of the eternally burning souls of the dead. No one knows who built it (who created God?) it has simply been spinning forever.

That's a cheerful thought, isn't it?

In all probability, I would say we are probably in Hell right now, wouldn't you? Or maybe it's just me.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2596925 -

I don't think God put us here to set us up for failure. He put us here so we could learn. He wants to be able to use us in the future, dependent on the choices we make here.

He doesn't throw us into hell for not asking for forgiveness. He throws us into hell for not accepting Christ as our saviour.

We have free will to do anything we want. We can choose to accept Christ, or not. But yes, there's a consequence to not accepting Christ. But if you don't believe in God anyways, what does it matter? If there's no God, there's no hell. Easy. Problem solved.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2597005 -

if god exists (personally i havent really decided on that yet) then people have missed the whole point. i agree with everything you said, kaiowas and i've thought if that in the past. they use god as a way of controlling people by FEAR of hell, satan, devil, other than teaching them about what god is really supposed to be - LOVE.

the bible has a lot to blame for all of this. people still believe in the laws that were addopted by our society in ancient times (old testament especially), such as an eye for and eye and so on. our society has evolved from that - we cannot keep believing in primitive belief systems. fundamentalists are everywhere and i hope we can somehow get rid of them in time.

"fundamentalist christians belive that the world is 12000 years old" - bill hicks.

if u havent heard of comedian bill hicks, i think u should give him a try. just a thought.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2597291 -

> we have God's judgement

What if we are God's judgement? Not that we have it, but the part of God which is judgemental is us?

> and we need to ask it for forgiveness or eternal damnation awaits.

... blah blah blah typical church hysteria. I tend to tune out when I hear about sin, damnation, etc.

> is it just me or does it seem ridiculous that a being that is so much higher than we are would actually "judge" us.

I personally feel the entire "judge" thing is a scare tactic by the church to maintain control over the simpletons. In my experience, unconditional love is better description of what God embrasses. We create God in our image. We judge each other, therefore God must judge us as well.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: Frog]
    #2598938 -

"He doesn't throw us into hell for not asking for forgiveness. He throws us into hell for not accepting Christ as our saviour."

so then I could essentially not repent for any of the bad things I have done in my life, but as long as i accept jesus as my savior, then I can enter the kingdom of god?  what a great way to better myself and the people around me.  :confused:

"He put us here so we could learn. He wants to be able to use us in the future, dependent on the choices we make here."

can't he use all of us?  so what you are saying is that christians are a better suited choice for God than everyone else because they accept jesus....and that's it?  that's what my soul is about?  not loving...not trying to better myself, but just accepting jesus.  is it deeper than that? is there something big that I am missing?

if god is omni..this and omni...that with infinite love and wisdom, what good is it to put conditions on us then?  isn't putting conditions on love undermine what love actually is in the first place?



"What if we are God's judgement? Not that we have it, but the part of God which is judgemental is us?"

:shocked:  I'll have to think more on that Seuss  :thumbup:


what are the implications of that statement...




I always asked myself...what if God uses us to experience, to know itself in an infinite amount of ways. just a thought...


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2598965 -

kaiowas said:
so then I could essentially not repent for any of the bad things I have done in my life, but as long as i accept jesus as my savior, then I can enter the kingdom of god?  what a great way to better myself and the people around me.  :confused:


In Romans, it is stated that we repent of our sins because sin offends God.  If one knows that Christ died for our sins in the manner that he died, why would we continue to sin? 

Quote:
can't he use all of us?  so what you are saying is that christians are a better suited choice for God than everyone else because they accept jesus....and that's it?  that's what my soul is about?  not loving...not trying to better myself, but just accepting jesus.  is it deeper than that? is there something big that I am missing?


We still have a lot to learn.  We are still told in the bible to love one another, for example.  It's not just about accepting Jesus, although we must accept Jesus to enter heaven.  Once we have accepted Jesus, we must follow God's commandments.  This is part of the growing and learning process of being a Christian.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judge) [Re: kaiowas]
    #2599700 -

we judge ourselves. but through the eyes of love.

so you can see it as yes god judges us, or you can see it as no we judge ourselves, but there is absolutely no difference, only in how you want to see it.

God = Love(which is unconditional)

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judg [Re: kaiowas]
    #2600063 -

God is nothingess of pure LOVE nothing more nothing less.
Love is infinity. Everyone needs it.
If humans didnt have love for each other ever we wouldnt of passed stone age. ETC

When we make love we 'create' life.
Creating life is a 'GODLY' act. The Sacred of the Sacred.
And if you have sex with a gal for pleasure doesnt the relationship crumble?

Love is the glue that holds everything together.

Hell i call the plane of punishment , god doesnt send you there
you send youself there by sinning. Hell is not eternal.
maybe 50 years at the most.

say you enjoy burning ants.
in hell ants crawl all over you.
But you only had a 60 year life say and 2 years where spent on burning ants . 2 years those ants torment you.

its only Fair!!

God has love for everyone and every creature that means
PERFECT EQUALITY must be given to EVERY CREATURE god gave
us life (organisms, plants, animals and us (any manifested spirit))
to have justice.

Blame youself if you go to hell , but its not for ETERNITY
only satan (anger) stays in hell for eternity not (love)

need i say anymore?...

P.S. love is caring for others well being etc NOT SEX (sex is just a physical expression of love but the spiritual expression is the purest of the pure and thats knowing god (eternal love))

peace


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Im not loved because im worthy, Im loved because youre good - Matthew West (Good)

You never know, when and where the shrooms will grow.

Subaeruginosa Guide

Tinned Fish and Seafood Ratings

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judg [Re: OOISI]
    #2600169 -

hmmm i thought the biblical hell was just a place where you feel the absense of god's presence (love) and light. i didn't think that all the pain and suffering came in until the book "dante's inferno."

there is just so many different opinions. i'll say this, hell is much like reality. it's what you make of it.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judg [Re: OOISI]
    #2602135 -

i dont agree with your idea of hell, but i do understand how u think that, its basically right...but it could be percieved much better i think.

heres what i think. when u die you will view your entire life, and while going through it you will feel all not only the way you were, you will feel the people around you's feelings as well. So if you were mean to someone, you will feel the way you made them feel, if you made a person feel good, you will feel that too. not only people, but all of life, if you tortured ants, its just the idea that you did something that lacked love and that will be a disappointment to us becuase we are going to want to see acts of love in our lives and nothing else.

i think that the only way we go to hell, which is simply lacking the love of god, is if we can not come to forgive ourselves. God doesnt need to forgive because he never had any grudges on us, only we will. And it might be hard to forgive yourself for say....raping women, killing people, hurting people your whole life...etc, things that totally lack love(which will be embarrassing since everyone will see it, but no one but you is judging yourself). But when you know that god holds nothing against you and everything is all good in his eyes, its easier to forgive yourself, becuase he will fill you with love and understanding of why you were the way that you were. To be able to see everything from every single point of view possible, to have ultimate understanding of your life, will make it easier.

this doesnt even begin to explain how i see things, but i tried

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judg [Re: ]
    #2603072 -

Kottonmouth...Beautiful!


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: god and its lack of unconditional love (forgive and judg [Re: kaiowas]
    #2607723 -

Most religions share the same projection of god as a being or deity consumed by unconditional love. It seems strongly ironic that a being with such compassion would doom its "children" (assuming we truly were created in god's image) to eternal damnation. I think that most people consider the concepts of heaven and hell as literal physical places in which we would exist in eternal bliss or suffer eternal damnation in actual physical realms. These philosophies arose from what I feel are misguided teachings from the bible, the koran, the vedas, etc... Heaven and Hell do exist, but they are not tangible physical places, they are states of personal being. I feel that anyone can achieve "heaven" by following the teachings of the enlightened... whether you choose Bhudda, Christ or anyone else it doesn't matter since their fundamental teachings are all the same: unconditional love for fellow human beings. The teachings of Christ have been taken too literally, however, over the last 2000 years. Christ considered himself the son of god because he attained a level of unconditional love and forgiveness that mirrored the compassion of the actual god. He wanted others to follow in his footsteps of unconditional love in order to attain an enlightened state. Hell, on the other hand, is the exact opposite, or the ignorance of love and compassion and the embrace of hate. Those who are incapable or unwilling to love in this manner exist in a state of hell (hate). So I feel that heaven and hell are not metaphysical realms we are sent to decidedly by god after our deaths, but are realms we exist in currently in our biological lives. Perhaps a third "purgatory" state exists in which most of us would be categorized as. Not blind ignorance, but not enlightened either. All things considered, no one on this planet can truly ever know for sure.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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