qman said:

ballsalsa said:

qman said:

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

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Right, and given the realities of globalization of the workforce,  increased automation that shows no sign of slowing, and massive wealth consolidation leading us down the road to oligarchy, what market based solution do you prescribe?

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A good start is reducing excess labor (deporting illegals and stopping illegal and legal immigration into the workforce), and stopping the outsourcing of jobs with tariffs.

Like I said, that's just a start.

---

qman said:

Please explain to us how paying their employees more and making more profits is directly correlated?  It's NOT.

Some small companies can double profits in the short term very easily, correlating that statistic with higher wages if disingenuous to say the least, correlation isn't causation.

---

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

I can tell you with absolute certainly that the vast majority of people in my company are left leaning, including the CxOs.  After all, they attended some of the top universities in the country which you yourself claim churn out a bunch of liberals.

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Liberals embracing cut throat capitalism, oh the hypocrisy.

---

No, we don't see the same "cut throat capitalism" in Silicon Valley (as akira noted) as in conservative states, which is one of the reasons why the working class here are so much better off than in other parts of the country where only the top executives are well off.  We have higher minimum wages, we have stronger unions, we have more worker's rights, etc. and we do a lot better as a result.

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that the most successful places in the country are liberal, and the most successful time in US history was during the FDR New Deal era.

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Sure, after these places became successful people call themselves liberal, what else is new?

---

As akira already said "that's some interesting spin. but no."

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Many CEO's realize the more money people have, the more product they can sell

---

Wow, do they really realize the law of supply and demand?  They just want OTHERS to pay their employees more to buy THEIR products because they pay their OWN employees the least amount they can get away with to maximize THEIR profits.

Sure, companies want consumers to have purchasing power, but that does NOT mean they are going to pay their own employees more money.

Fal is suggesting that CEO's want consumers to have purchasing power for their products because many identify with liberalism, yet I pointed out those CEO's won't pay their own employees more money, they just want OTHER CEO's to pay their employees more money.

---

ballsalsa had the perfect response which I'll repeat here:

qman said:

ballsalsa said:

If:
A) CEOs want consumers to have purchasing power for their products
B) CEOs want other companies to pay their employees more, while not raising the wages of their own employees

And:
C)Higher wages equate to greater consumer purchasing power
D)Greater purchasing power leads to increased consumer spending

Then:
E)A third party should mandate or incentivize wage increases in order that the benefit be available to all business.

---

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Now you're showing a lack of analytical ability.  You're just parroting right wing bullshit.

The fact of the matter is (which I've noted many times) that people in places with mandatory higher wages do better on average.  I'm sure you can cherry pick one exception somewhere, but I'm talking on average.

Maybe it's time for you to come out of your bubble and accept real world results? 

Bigbadwooof said:

qman said:

Please explain to us how paying their employees more and making more profits is directly correlated?  It's NOT.

Some small companies can double profits in the short term very easily, correlating that statistic with higher wages if disingenuous to say the least, correlation isn't causation.

---

Read the article. Employees work harder when they are being paid a living wage. The community has also supported the company, because they like what they are doing.

---

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

I can tell you with absolute certainly that the vast majority of people in my company are left leaning, including the CxOs.  After all, they attended some of the top universities in the country which you yourself claim churn out a bunch of liberals.

---

Liberals embracing cut throat capitalism, oh the hypocrisy.

---

No, we don't see the same "cut throat capitalism" in Silicon Valley (as akira noted) as in conservative states, which is one of the reasons why the working class here are so much better off than in other parts of the country where only the top executives are well off.  We have higher minimum wages, we have stronger unions, we have more worker's rights, etc. and we do a lot better as a result.

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that the most successful places in the country are liberal, and the most successful time in US history was during the FDR New Deal era.

---

Sure, after these places became successful people call themselves liberal, what else is new?

---

As akira already said "that's some interesting spin. but no."

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Many CEO's realize the more money people have, the more product they can sell

---

Wow, do they really realize the law of supply and demand?  They just want OTHERS to pay their employees more to buy THEIR products because they pay their OWN employees the least amount they can get away with to maximize THEIR profits.

Sure, companies want consumers to have purchasing power, but that does NOT mean they are going to pay their own employees more money.

Fal is suggesting that CEO's want consumers to have purchasing power for their products because many identify with liberalism, yet I pointed out those CEO's won't pay their own employees more money, they just want OTHER CEO's to pay their employees more money.

---

ballsalsa had the perfect response which I'll repeat here:

qman said:

ballsalsa said:

If:
A) CEOs want consumers to have purchasing power for their products
B) CEOs want other companies to pay their employees more, while not raising the wages of their own employees

And:
C)Higher wages equate to greater consumer purchasing power
D)Greater purchasing power leads to increased consumer spending

Then:
E)A third party should mandate or incentivize wage increases in order that the benefit be available to all business.

---

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Now you're showing a lack of analytical ability.  You're just parroting right wing bullshit.

The fact of the matter is (which I've noted many times) that people in places with mandatory higher wages do better on average.  I'm sure you can cherry pick one exception somewhere, but I'm talking on average.

Maybe it's time for you to come out of your bubble and accept real world results? 

---

qman said:

"Read the article"

I did.

"Employees work harder when they are being paid a living wage"

I tend to agree with you on that statement.

Hey, it's a great story for sure, but it's a very rare situation for obvious reasons.  It might not even be sustainable for the longer term.

---

Bigbadwooof said:

qman said:

"Read the article"

I did.

"Employees work harder when they are being paid a living wage"

I tend to agree with you on that statement.

Hey, it's a great story for sure, but it's a very rare situation for obvious reasons.  It might not even be sustainable for the longer term.

---

There's a reason Costco is beating Walmart, and people despise Walmart, and love Costco. Just throwing that out there.

---

qman said:

qman said:

ballsalsa said:

If:
A) CEOs want consumers to have purchasing power for their products
B) CEOs want other companies to pay their employees more, while not raising the wages of their own employees

And:
C)Higher wages equate to greater consumer purchasing power
D)Greater purchasing power leads to increased consumer spending

Then:
E)A third party should mandate or incentivize wage increases in order that the benefit be available to all business.

---

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Have I ever argued against a higher minimum wage?  NO.

---

Would you please reread the post YOU JUST MADE above? 

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

qman said:

ballsalsa said:

If:
A) CEOs want consumers to have purchasing power for their products
B) CEOs want other companies to pay their employees more, while not raising the wages of their own employees

And:
C)Higher wages equate to greater consumer purchasing power
D)Greater purchasing power leads to increased consumer spending

Then:
E)A third party should mandate or incentivize wage increases in order that the benefit be available to all business.

---

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Have I ever argued against a higher minimum wage?  NO.

---

Would you please reread the post YOU JUST MADE above? 

---

qman said:

Do I think it's a cure for structural problems in the labor market?  NO.

---

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

we don't see the same "cut throat capitalism" in Silicon Valley (as akira noted) as in conservative states, which is one of the reasons why the working class here are so much better off than in other parts of the country where only the top executives are well off.  We have higher minimum wages, we have stronger unions, we have more worker's rights, etc. and we do a lot better as a result.

---

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-highest-paid-tech-ceos-by-pay-ratio-2015-8/#no-1-microsoft-ceo-satya-nadella-111117

Yeah right, who are you trying to convince with that nonsense?

---

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

qman said:

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Have I ever argued against a higher minimum wage?  NO.

---

Would you please reread the post YOU JUST MADE above? 

---

If just hiking the minimum wage was the solution for low wages every country in the world could solve their economic issues with that mandate, it's not that simple.

---

Ok, so now you're saying you're against the minimum wage. 

Once again, I'll ask you to step out of your bubble and look at real world results.  Look at the cities in the US that raised their minimum wage and let me know how they're doing on average. 

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

Do I think it's a cure for structural problems in the labor market?  NO.

---

What structural problems?  The ones you keep pretending exist but can't back up with evidence?

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

we don't see the same "cut throat capitalism" in Silicon Valley (as akira noted) as in conservative states, which is one of the reasons why the working class here are so much better off than in other parts of the country where only the top executives are well off.  We have higher minimum wages, we have stronger unions, we have more worker's rights, etc. and we do a lot better as a result.

---

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-highest-paid-tech-ceos-by-pay-ratio-2015-8/#no-1-microsoft-ceo-satya-nadella-111117

Yeah right, who are you trying to convince with that nonsense?

---

Here is the data from ALL of the Silicon Valley companies in your article:

Average employee pay:
#2 Oracle:  $117,415
#7 Oracle:  $137,011
#8 Apple:  $125,000 (Silicon Valley) (or $36,760 including Apple Store employees)
#11 Salesforce.com:  $151,512
#12 Hewlett Packard:  $103,632
#15 Adobe:  $133,322
#16 Intuit:  $126,999
#17 eBay:  $132,220

While you might call these salaries greedy, the people who work for these Silicon Valley companies (like myself) are quite well off.

---

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

qman said:

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Have I ever argued against a higher minimum wage?  NO.

---

Would you please reread the post YOU JUST MADE above? 

---

If just hiking the minimum wage was the solution for low wages every country in the world could solve their economic issues with that mandate, it's not that simple.

---

Ok, so now you're saying you're against the minimum wage. 

Once again, I'll ask you to step out of your bubble and look at real world results.  Look at the cities in the US that raised their minimum wage and let me know how they're doing on average. 

---

Call up the leaders of every third world economy and tell them to hike their minimum wage, problems solved.

"Look at the cities in the US that raised their minimum wage"

An affluent city that has the fundamentals to pay higher wages without hurting businesses isn't evidence that it works universally across the board, correlation is causation.

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

Mandating higher wages is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound.

I like market forces to dictate higher wages, not some government bureaucrat.

---

Have I ever argued against a higher minimum wage?  NO.

---

Would you please reread the post YOU JUST MADE above? 

---

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

What structural problems?  The ones you keep pretending exist but can't back up with evidence?

---

Lack of wage growth and the largest income/wealth

http://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

http://www.businessinsider.com/inequality-in-the-us-is-much-more-extreme-than-you-think-2015-6

---

Lack of wage growth and income inequality are symptoms.  But what are the underlying causes?

You keep believing in a magical conservative fantasy land where corporations pay people a decent wage without Government intervention via minimum wages, union protection, and other such involvement.  But such a fantasy land has NEVER existed ANYWHERE.

The CAUSE for low wages and high income inequality IS the free market.  This is proven by hundreds of years of empirical evidence.  We know with little doubt that union membership reduces income inequality:



And we know with little doubt that higher minimum wages have ZERO long term impact on unemployment.

Liberals present solutions that empirical evidence has proven to work, conservatives propose solutions that have always failed.

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Here is the data from ALL of the Silicon Valley companies in your article:

Average employee pay:
#2 Oracle:  $117,415
#7 Oracle:  $137,011
#8 Apple:  $125,000 (Silicon Valley) (or $36,760 including Apple Store employees)
#11 Salesforce.com:  $151,512
#12 Hewlett Packard:  $103,632
#15 Adobe:  $133,322
#16 Intuit:  $126,999
#17 eBay:  $132,220

While you might call these salaries greedy, the people who work for these Silicon Valley companies (like myself) are quite well off.

---

Being disingenuous once again, now post the CEO's incomes.

---

It's in your article.  They make a hell of a lot more, which is exactly why I said that you might call these salaries greedy.  However, the fact is that people in liberal locations are better off.  That's been shown again and again.

qman said:

Call up the leaders of every third world economy and tell them to hike their minimum wage, problems solved.

---

Can you point to a country where that solution was tried and failed? 

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Look at the cities in the US that raised their minimum wage

---

An affluent city that has the fundamentals to pay higher wages without hurting businesses isn't evidence that it works universally across the board, correlation is causation.

---

Can you point to a city where a higher minimum wage was tried and failed?

Bigbadwooof said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Would you please reread the post YOU JUST MADE above? 

---

---

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

The CAUSE for low wages and high income inequality is the free market

---

Thank you for finally admitting that fact, this is where the law of supply and demand come into play.

---

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

This was discussed at length here (where I got more up votes than any post I ever made).

---