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InvisiblePrem. Kissoff
Tourist with a typewriter
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Posts: 259
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DieCommie]
    #24003796 - 01/12/17 11:20 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Social society isn't the worst thing around and some things are too important to put up for a vote.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DieCommie]
    #24003807 - 01/12/17 11:26 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

wanting to learn and getting sick (or staying healthy) should not put anyone into crippling debt. but those issues are distinct from the fact that american wages have stagnated for decades in some sectors, and that that stagnation is spreading. clinton's failure was lumping all three of these issues together and treating them as one, which is why a good chunk of american labor voted for trump, even though it was plainly against their interest.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24003820 - 01/12/17 11:32 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

When people like Clinton say stupid things like insurance companies bi g forced to take on already sick customers, I can't take anything she says as intelligent.

The country cheering for something so fundamentally stupid makes me unsure how we stayed around


--------------------


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #24003831 - 01/12/17 11:37 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

i would much rather have clinton in office than trump. she may have overlooked how serious america's labor problems are, but i don't see how anyone looks at the shit show that is unfolding with trump and thinks this will turn out well.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24003850 - 01/12/17 11:45 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
wanting to learn and getting sick (or staying healthy) should not put anyone into crippling debt. but those issues are distinct from the fact that american wages have stagnated for decades in some sectors, and that that stagnation is spreading. clinton's failure was lumping all three of these issues together and treating them as one, which is why a good chunk of american labor voted for trump, even though it was plainly against their interest.




How is economic tariffs and deporting illegal cheap labor against "American labor"?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #24003865 - 01/12/17 11:50 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I'd probably have seriously harmed someone if I knew my grandpa could have gotten even another week of living, but they didn't want to pay for it



Why don't you or your grandpa pay for it?  Or are you saying that you're ok with everyone paying a lot more for health insurance?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can we can agree that any surgery/procedure that would extend life by less than 6 months (or some other similar number) shouldn't be paid for by Government health insurance?



Who makes this estimate? A doctor? The hospital board? Sometimes people hold on for unexpected amounts of time, sometimes they die far sooner.



Doctors can make statistically accurate determinations.  For example, they can say that on average, a certain procedure on a certain condition will generally extend life for 20 days.  Sometimes it might be 0 days, sometimes it might be 60 days.  But they know the likely outcome.  Leave it to the patient to decide if they want to pay hundreds of thousands for a few extra weeks.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #24003871 - 01/12/17 11:51 AM (7 years, 18 days ago)

a trade war would hurt both countries. and mass deportation wouldn't improve conditions for legal workers who would supposedly fill those jobs.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24003889 - 01/12/17 12:00 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
a trade war would hurt both countries. and mass deportation wouldn't improve conditions for legal workers who would supposedly fill those jobs.




"a trade war would hurt both countries"

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.

"mass deportation wouldn't improve conditions for legal workers"

Really, having a job and having wages moving higher isn't an improvement? Again you don't know what you're talking about. :facepalm:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #24003906 - 01/12/17 12:09 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
When people like Clinton say stupid things like insurance companies bi g forced to take on already sick customers, I can't take anything she says as intelligent.

The country cheering for something so fundamentally stupid makes me unsure how we stayed around



People with pre-existing conditions shouldn't be insured?  Why is that?  Because of costs?

Weren't you just arguing insurance shouldn't care about the costs of keeping your grandpa alive an extra week?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24003923 - 01/12/17 12:15 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Profit incentives destroys the ethical manner in which medicine should be practiced.

I have a friend that works with cancer patients, the first thing they do is to examine the patients insurance policy and then to maximize the treatments that their insurance would approve.

Bottom line, if a person has good coverage they are going to get over treated so the hospital can make a larger profit even when that over treatment could cause them harm.

He says it's very difficult to work in that environment and he would love to quit, it's clearly unethical.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Posts: 12,404
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 3
    #24003948 - 01/12/17 12:33 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.




because it doesn't address wages and benefits. those jobs would still be low pay, minimum, high-deductible benefits positions, only with american bodies filling them instead of illegal labor.

Quote:

Really, having a job and having wages moving higher isn't an improvement? Again you don't know what you're talking about. :facepalm:




on what do you couch your claim that wages would necessarily get higher across the board in the event of mass deportation? again, it's not like americans who even want to pick fruit are just going to magically get a raise if we rid ourselves of every shred of illegal labor, assuming that's even possible. we're never going to deport our way out of wage stagnation because the problem is not a result of illegal labor. wage stagnation is the result of a complete redesign of the economy, starting during the nixon years, which has rendered it as a machine that only distributes wealth upwardly.

if you care about american labor, you should favor an economy that presents secure pathways to shared prosperity for everyone; not just doctors, not just lawyers, not just software engineers, everyone. a properly functioning economy is the bedrock of a just society. add functioning democratic institutions, efficient and effective social services, socialized healthcare and free college, and we might just move up a few spots up from 20th place in living standards of the industrialized world.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (01/12/17 01:00 PM)


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24003990 - 01/12/17 12:48 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

My grandpa had insurance, it was just an example.

We need something separate from insurance to deal with people that don't have insurance and need help. A fund maybe, supplemented with charity. There is much more charity in capitalistic societies. Forcing insurance companies to take on risk makes them have to raise prices on everyone else, because their new customers are costing them.
Its like forcing a store to let the homeless shop there for free.


Everything is skewed now though. Prices in he medical field need to be decided market forces.

Its criminal to let someone die of preventable causes anyway. Its one thing to not attempt at something impossible. I'm not allowed to stand by and let some stranger die if I can prevent it. In your scenario doctors become executioners, and tn victims of unviable patient's loved ones

Quote:

Profit incentives destroys the ethical manner in which medicine should be practiced



There are a lot of expenses in hospitals. How would one go about pricing things with such a limited thing as surgical  expertise, or antibiotics? Ethics don't run economies.


--------------------


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 3
    #24004022 - 01/12/17 01:00 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

a big part of our problem is being so black and white about things like socialism and capitalism. neither approach should be treated as holistic. socialized means of production for all goods is a pipe dream at this point because we haven't even remotely dealt with the problem of inequality or scarcity. likewise, capitalism works great for butt plugs and cars, but it's a total fucking disaster for healthcare and state universities. we already have socialism and capitalism in play - we just need to change how much of each is in play on certain things to make things better for everyone.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24004097 - 01/12/17 01:26 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Inequality is a feature, it doesn't need fixed. Scarcity is the reason for capitalism, because if there was no scarcity then everything would be free. Scarcity can't be gotten rid of, because resources are limited, labor and time also being resources.

It isnt about how much of either you use. That doesn't make sense. Capitalism regulates markets by getting to the direct price. It takes into account all aspects of development for an object and how much people desire it.

I don't know how capitalism is harming universities, in your opinion.

Capitalism is like biology. Its too complicated to get a complete idea of, but it has many factors the regulate themselves, because failing ideas fail


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
    #24004108 - 01/12/17 01:30 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

qman said:

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.




because it doesn't address wages and benefits. those jobs would still be low pay, minimum, high-deductible benefits positions, only with american bodies filling them instead of illegal labor.

Quote:

Really, having a job and having wages moving higher isn't an improvement? Again you don't know what you're talking about. :facepalm:




on what do you couch your claim that wages would necessarily get higher across the board in the event of mass deportation? again, it's not like americans who even want to pick fruit are just going to magically get a raise if we rid ourselves of every shred of illegal labor, assuming that's even possible. we're never going to deport our way out of wage stagnation because the problem is not a result of illegal labor. wage stagnation is the result of a complete redesign of the economy, starting during the nixon years, which has rendered it as a machine that only distributes wealth upwardly.

if you care about american labor, you should favor an economy that presents secure pathways to shared prosperity for everyone; not just doctors, not just lawyers, not just software engineers, everyone. a properly functioning economy is the bedrock of a just society. add functioning democratic institutions, efficient and effective social services, socialized healthcare and free college, and we might just move up a few spots up from 20th place in living standards of the industrialized world.




You obviously don't understand the basic economic laws of supply (labor) an demand (jobs availability), more people chasing the same amount of jobs equals lower wages, why do you think the corporate elite have always been in favor of an open border?  Because that means lower wages for EVERYONE.

"wage stagnation is the result of a complete resign of the economy"

Yes, globalization (unfair trade) and illegal/legal immigration into the US workforce.

"only distributes wealth upwardly"

That's correct, yet you're in favor of those policies that do so, you're so misinformed on basic economics.

"prosperity for everyone"

Now you're in hippy pie in the sky nonsense, you're hoping for some bureaucrat in Washington to save you, it's never going to happen.

Who the fuck is going to pay for free social services, free health care and free college if we continue to ship the jobs out of the US?  Is Julio making $7 per hour under the table going to support this system?  :facepalm:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #24004138 - 01/12/17 01:37 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
My grandpa had insurance, it was just an example.

We need something separate from insurance to deal with people that don't have insurance and need help. A fund maybe, supplemented with charity. There is much more charity in capitalistic societies. Forcing insurance companies to take on risk makes them have to raise prices on everyone else, because their new customers are costing them.
Its like forcing a store to let the homeless shop there for free.


Everything is skewed now though. Prices in he medical field need to be decided market forces.

Its criminal to let someone die of preventable causes anyway. Its one thing to not attempt at something impossible. I'm not allowed to stand by and let some stranger die if I can prevent it. In your scenario doctors become executioners, and tn victims of unviable patient's loved ones

Quote:

Profit incentives destroys the ethical manner in which medicine should be practiced



There are a lot of expenses in hospitals. How would one go about pricing things with such a limited thing as surgical  expertise, or antibiotics? Ethics don't run economies.




You do realize "profit" is the excess money after expenses have already been put into the equation? 

We I make a payment for health insurance, what part of the money actually goes to the treatment of patients?  20% goes to the insurance company for "managing" costs, what a good job they have done the past 30 years. :facepalm:  How much of that payment also goes to the medical industry to buy malpractice insurance? 

Are starting to get the idea here?  Insurance companies, law firms and corporate health care companies are taking way too much of the money while the patient gets the shaft at every level.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #24004168 - 01/12/17 01:45 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Only coma patients get the shaft, and they don't know about it anyway.

Really, why do you think government would waste less of he money? Also, over state competition sounded like a good idea. Why streamline when there isnt a reason?


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 2
    #24004901 - 01/12/17 05:33 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
a trade war would hurt both countries. and mass deportation wouldn't improve conditions for legal workers who would supposedly fill those jobs.




"a trade war would hurt both countries"

How would US workers making products for US citizens hurt the US, I don't think you know what you're even talking about.






It would raise the price of goods, create scarcity and environmental damage.  It benefits the few at the expense of the nation as a whole.  I work in a factory.  We would immediately shut down without global trade.  The US doesn't have resource to keep us running, we have to import them.  Also, the US doesn't have the consumer base to buy all our products.

Trade and immigration are scapegoats for real economic and environmental constraints.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 2
    #24005147 - 01/12/17 06:40 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
on what do you couch your claim that wages would necessarily get higher across the board in the event of mass deportation? again, it's not like americans who even want to pick fruit are just going to magically get a raise if we rid ourselves of every shred of illegal labor, assuming that's even possible. we're never going to deport our way out of wage stagnation because the problem is not a result of illegal labor.



You obviously don't understand the basic economic laws of supply (labor) an demand (jobs availability), more people chasing the same amount of jobs equals lower wages



Or maybe he's been paying attention to the discussions where it is repeatedly pointed out to you that the law of supply and demand doesn't appear to apply to wages, and you repeatedly fail to prove any correlation:



I'll ask yet again:  Based on the empirical evidence, do wages go up or down with unemployment?

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

millzy said:
if you care about american labor, you should favor an economy that presents secure pathways to shared prosperity for everyone



Now you're in hippy pie in the sky nonsense, you're hoping for some bureaucrat in Washington to save you, it's never going to happen.

Who the fuck is going to pay for free social services, free health care and free college



It's happened before under FDR, and it could happen again should we elect a Bernie Sanders type of candidate.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #24005159 - 01/12/17 06:44 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Inequality is a feature, it doesn't need fixed.



Unless you believe in a strong middle class.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I don't know how capitalism is harming universities, in your opinion.



It's not harming universities, it's harming students.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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