|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I put the context back into millzy's post so that you can clearly see he wasn't making the argument that resources are unlimited. He was making the argument that markets are subject to man made rules.
He stated that markets are man made, I showed markets involving resources are NOT man made because of the supply and demand part of the equation.
markets are man-made.
Akira is right. And besides, millzy didn't make the argument that resources are unlimited. That was a straw man.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: money being spent changes the value of wealth. It INCREASES wealth
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. If too much money chases to few of goods, what happens? Inflation, which ultimately destroys some of the purchasing power of the existing currency units and the debt held in that currency.
Just a moment ago, you argued that wealth isn't money. Are you now arguing that wealth is ONLY money? Sure, there might be some inflation (which the Federal Reserve would slow), but the goods created by money also increases wealth.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: tariffs are bad unless corporations choose not to share all the extra money they get from free trade with their workers
I'm not sure this statement even makes sense, what are you trying to articulate here?
I'm sure you agree that corporations would make more money without tariffs. So they could use some of that extra money to pay their workers more. If they did that, I'd support free trade.
But as you know, corporations have no interest in paying their workers fairly. Instead, they'll find a location where they can pay workers the least. This costs US jobs. One way to counter that is with tariffs (so products made in foreign countries aren't priced lower than American products). Not the best solution, but it beats losing jobs to cheaper locations abroad.
Sounds like you support economic tariffs unless you go to theoretical land where corporations were going to give away money to workers when they didn't have to at all, was it that hard to admit it? Now explain it to Millzy.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24007984 - 01/13/17 06:32 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
the US should just split down the middle already...then eventually the right can become extinct.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
akira_akuma said: no. market fundamentals is the market. no one else on this planet "MARKETS" or does trade.
it is a man-made invention.
Quote:
qman said: Why? Because he could never accomplish that economic goal or are you truly against the policy?
he?
Bernie, it appears that Ecstatic really isn't a firm believer in his core economic polices, good to know.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#24007987 - 01/13/17 06:33 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
millzy said: markets are man-made: the economy is not subject to natural laws, or "blind, unbroken regularities" as hume puts it. the term 'market' entails rules, starting with whatever rules we make for transactions. whatever follows from those rules and subtleties we bake into the system is ultimately our doing.
This is such nonsense
markets are man-made.
No shit 
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#24007994 - 01/13/17 06:36 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: Sounds like you support economic tariffs unless you go to theoretical land where corporations were going to give away money to workers when they didn't have to at all, was it that hard to admit it? Now explain it to Millzy. 
No, that's a straw man. I support economic tariffs unless Government steps in to help distribute the resulting wealth from free trade to workers.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
millzy said: markets are man-made: the economy is not subject to natural laws, or "blind, unbroken regularities" as hume puts it. the term 'market' entails rules, starting with whatever rules we make for transactions. whatever follows from those rules and subtleties we bake into the system is ultimately our doing.
This is such nonsense
markets are man-made.
No shit 
Yay, you engaged in another semantics battle, I SHOULD have originally said market fundamentals are NOT man made, that was the core argument that was taking place, but by all means continue those semantics debates.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: Sounds like you support economic tariffs unless you go to theoretical land where corporations were going to give away money to workers when they didn't have to at all, was it that hard to admit it? Now explain it to Millzy. 
No, that's a straw man. I support economic tariffs unless Government steps in to help distribute the resulting wealth from free trade to workers.
What about the non-workers who lost their job as a result of "free trade"? Why reward the people that were lucky enough to still have employment at the company?
Once again, you're in favor of tariffs unless there's a redistribution of wealth mandated by the government.
Here's my position, I'm in favor of tariffs unless there's a big asteroid that crashes into the earth and causes chaos for the human species.
Edited by qman (01/13/17 06:45 PM)
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24008020 - 01/13/17 06:49 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: Bernie, it appears that Ecstatic really isn't a firm believer in his core economic polices, good to know.
you fundamentally misapprehend the concept of whom is behind the economic goal's success.
Quote:
qman said: you engaged in another semantics battle, I SHOULD have originally said market fundamentals are NOT man made, that was the core argument that was taking place, but by all means continue those semantics debates.
not.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#24008041 - 01/13/17 06:58 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I support economic tariffs unless Government steps in to help distribute the resulting wealth from free trade to workers.
What about the non-workers who lost their job as a result of "free trade"? Why reward the people that were lucky enough to still have employment at the company?
I guess I wasn't clear. When I said "I support economic tariffs unless Government steps in to help distribute the resulting wealth from free trade to workers", I meant ALL workers for that company, not just the US based workers. In other words US corporations should pay people the same regardless of where they are. That would disentivize companies from setting up shops overseas in the first place. Similarly, foreign corporations that want to sell in the US would have to have some minimum worker standard. I guess that's not technically "free" trade, but it keeps the money in the corporation.
Quote:
qman said: Once again, you're in favor of tariffs unless there's a redistribution of wealth mandated by the government.
Exactly.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (01/13/17 08:07 PM)
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
qman said: Bernie, it appears that Ecstatic really isn't a firm believer in his core economic polices, good to know.
you fundamentally misapprehend the concept of whom is behind the economic goal's success.
Quote:
qman said: you engaged in another semantics battle, I SHOULD have originally said market fundamentals are NOT man made, that was the core argument that was taking place, but by all means continue those semantics debates.
not.
Bernie is in favor of economic tariffs, Ecstatic called it a pipedream, I will let him clarify his position before saying anything else about it.
You don't have positions, you're just Mr. Middle Gray.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 50 minutes
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#24008088 - 01/13/17 07:18 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
So because I think tariffs are farfetched that means I dont believe in Bernie's core economic policy?
How nice of you to let me clarify before you attach some more of your assumptions onto my posts. Pfft.
--------------------
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24008094 - 01/13/17 07:20 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: You don't have positions, you're just Mr. Middle Gray. 
LOL, i've shared my positions many-a-time.
you have too many people in your population to come to any reasonable consensus. so an unreasonable one is forced.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 50 minutes
|
|
thats pretty insightful
--------------------
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
way.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: So because I think tariffs are farfetched that means I dont believe in Bernie's core economic policy?
How nice of you to let me clarify before you attach some more of your assumptions onto my posts. Pfft.
Did you clarify your position?
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 50 minutes
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24008271 - 01/13/17 09:00 PM (7 years, 16 days ago) |
|
|
But I already have people doing that for me.
--------------------
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: But I already have people doing that for me.
Colossal waste of time
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
|
that post you just made. yes, it was.
|
|