|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 hours, 30 minutes
|
|
Heh, I did not know that. Interesting.
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] 2
#23860385 - 11/23/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TFI said: Funny considering i know of three spur makers who moved from california due to the taxes.
You can cherry pick counter examples for just about anything. The fact is, “More businesses are coming than going"
Plus, more jobs are being created in California than in Texas or the US:

Quote:
TFI said: You still must not understand that certain people dont want to buy healthcare, so since me and a huge number of people dont want to buy it why dont you and the government pay for us to have it?
The Ecstatic called you out on this already. Of course you don't want to buy it, you'll have the rest of us pay for you when you have a medical emergency that you can't afford. That's wrong.
Many people want a "medicare for all" type of system anyway, where you don't even have to pay a private insurance company.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Brian Jones said: For whatever reason in Europe they call it social democracy, and the Bernie movement was called democratic socialism.
Bernice's movement was closer to what they have in Venezuela, not European countries, that was the difference
|
millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
TFI said:
Quote:
sudly said: Even though the US is one of the most affluent nations in the world they are still incapable of providing basic needs for their people.
So forcing healthcare down the american peoples throat is the solution?
"Forcing healthcare down the American peoples throat"
So you think having healthcare is a bad thing? You think when people get sick they should have to choose between bankruptcy and death? No thanks.
What needs to happen is to make healthcare affordable for the masses like they do in all other developed countries. The problem is that conservatives cry about taxing the rich more, and insist they'd rather have no healthcare than cheap healthcare. 
it's not that healthcare is a bad thing. it's paying for it that's bad. paying for healthcare eats into profits that would otherwise be held by business owners. it's understandable why any business owner would want to minimize their costs. but there also seems to be the inescapable fact that people are not an expense, a cost that we should cut corners on whenever possible. people require dignity. they need things like money to live, paid time off and health care. if you need people to do business, then you need to be able to pay for the things people need in exchange for their service on behalf of your organization. can't afford it? don't want to pay for it? maybe you shouldn't own a business.
we need to abandon this tacit assumption that business owners are the only individuals who should be getting anything out of business arrangements. nobody is doing anyone any favors by working them to death and not giving them what they actually need. insufficient benefits and wages place an enormous burden on society as well as corrode its foundations: too much inequality sows the seeds of revolution.
that said, we also need to abandon the assumption that we're not all in this together. we need to make it easier on business owners to come through for their people, especially small business owners. big business is robbing us blind through corporate tax loopholes. i would like to see us close those loopholes and funnel that money into programs that make everything more affordable for smaller business owners. if we did that, as well as leaned really hard on all businesses to pay living wages, we would have even more wealth to tax and funnel into things like education (at all levels), public transportation, infrastructure etc. and if that means that some business elite is only netting 2 million a year instead of 3, so be it.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (11/24/16 08:15 AM)
|
TFI
Stranger


Registered: 04/06/14
Posts: 345
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
#23899613 - 12/06/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Well since yall r paying for my healthcare i guess ill send yall the bill
|
TFI
Stranger


Registered: 04/06/14
Posts: 345
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI]
#23899617 - 12/06/16 11:20 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Clearly yall work a job. You have no idea how hard it is to start up with all the taxes and regulation bullshit. Shouldnt own a business? If thats the case then i only see very fery few new business coming. Not everyone is a huge business
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 8 hours, 53 minutes
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI]
#23899709 - 12/06/16 11:51 AM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TFI said: Clearly yall work a job. You have no idea how hard it is to start up with all the taxes and regulation bullshit. Shouldnt own a business? If thats the case then i only see very fery few new business coming. Not everyone is a huge business
I don't think you'll find much argument here. The tax code needs to be simplified. I think that's a big reason a lot of people don't attempt to start a business. It's quite intimidating, and not every start-up can afford an accountant.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] 1
#23899740 - 12/06/16 12:03 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TFI said: Clearly yall work a job. You have no idea how hard it is to start up with all the taxes and regulation bullshit. Shouldnt own a business? If thats the case then i only see very fery few new business coming. Not everyone is a huge business
if you go back and read my reply, you'll see that i'm all for making it easier to have a small business. my point about "not owning a business" was about paying workers, not taxes. if the only way for you to make a living is by fucking over people by underpaying them, then you shouldn't be allowed to make a living that way. you can appeal all you want to these utterly ridiculous notions about business owner's right to 'liberty', but at the end of the day, it's not working out for anyone, including business owners. want more people consuming your products and services? if so, then you should be for higher salaries for everyone from the base up to about where money isn't even real.
when we all do better, we all do better. it doesn't take a degree in economics to see that.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (12/06/16 12:06 PM)
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
#23899784 - 12/06/16 12:22 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
TFI said: You have no idea how hard it is to start up with all the taxes and regulation bullshit.
I don't think you'll find much argument here.
i'm all for making it easier to have a small business.
I think everyone but the establishment agrees it should be made easier for small businesses to get started.
Quote:
millzy said: my point about "not owning a business" was about paying workers, not taxes. if the only way for you to make a living is by fucking over people by underpaying them, then you shouldn't be allowed to make a living that way. you can appeal all you want to these utterly ridiculous notions about business owner's right to 'liberty', but at the end of the day, it's not working out for anyone, including business owners. want more people consuming your products and services? if so, then you should be for higher salaries for everyone from the base up to about where money isn't even real.
when we all do better, we all do better. it doesn't take a degree in economics to see that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
finalexplosion
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/16
Posts: 370
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI]
#23900256 - 12/06/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TFI said: Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government as opposed to democracy.
how do you feel?
I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit
Only individuals with low IQ & testosterone who shockingly are adverse to competition would believe such an absurd thing. Yes, it is very Jesus like and in a perfect world, it would be a nice gesture. In reality, it does not work. The same company that are in support of this are rioting as we speak, clinging to victim culture, egomaniacs one sec, trashing their neighborhood the next moment when they fail, and of course, expect the parade of free money while stomping their feet.
A gym membership would be a good start to dealing with all that rage and obesity.
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
|
Quote:
finalexplosion said:
Quote:
TFI said: Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government
Only individuals with low IQ & testosterone who shockingly are adverse to competition would believe such an absurd thing.
I think you're about as bad as hostileuniverse in making up your own facts.
I can't wait to see your evidence for this...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
finalexplosion said:
Quote:
TFI said: Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government
Only individuals with low IQ & testosterone who shockingly are adverse to competition would believe such an absurd thing.
I think you're about as bad as hostileuniverse in making up your own facts.
I can't wait to see your evidence for this... 
Oh look, more shit posting from our lovable left
|
millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
|
|
and again, nobody is arguing for an equal distribution of wealth, publicly owned means of production or any other straw you build your counterpoints with. there's enough to go around for everyone. and really, if more people had more money to spend, it would drive competition and innovation.
it's also laughable that you seem to view greed as "strength". the first thing your parents taught you how to do after you stopped shitting yourselves is to share. but even then, what businesses do to employees when they underpay them is not really refusing to share, because the money they are keeping never belonged to them to begin with. it's really just theft by another name.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 4 minutes
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
#23901606 - 12/06/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
millzy said: and again, nobody is arguing for an equal distribution of wealth, publicly owned means of production or any other straw you build your counterpoints with. there's enough to go around for everyone. and really, if more people had more money to spend, it would drive competition and innovation.
it's also laughable that you seem to view greed as "strength". the first thing your parents taught you how to do after you stopped shitting yourselves is to share. but even then, what businesses do to employees when they underpay them is not really refusing to share, because the money they are keeping never belonged to them to begin with. it's really just theft by another name.

Where are all of these moral people paying their employees more than what the market dictates? Are these people stealing from their workers?
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#23901684 - 12/06/16 10:19 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: Where are all of these moral people paying their employees more than what the market dictates? Are these people stealing from their workers?
Is there a typo here? People paying workers more are stealing from their workers? What???
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 4 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: Where are all of these moral people paying their employees more than what the market dictates? Are these people stealing from their workers?
Is there a typo here? People paying workers more are stealing from their workers? What???
Two separate questions, what employers are paying more out of moral obligation?
Are today's employers stealing from their workers?
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#23901751 - 12/06/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Very few are paying more out of moral obligation.
And very few are stealing from their workers.
But his point is valid that most employees are underpaid.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
|
|
most employees are underpaid because we have high concentrations of profit at the very top of organizations. the standard answer to this problem is that the state of affairs is due to 'market forces', but this would be circular reasoning. markets are not governed by unbroken, blind regularities like the natural world. there is absolutely nothing natural about markets; the term 'market' implies man made rules. beliefs drive the rules that we build into our markets, and market forces are just observable results of those rules.
bottom line: markets are what we make them. they are a direct reflection of our beliefs about what it means to live in a just society. about 50 years ago, elites decided that justice means security, stability and wealth for those at the very top at the expense of everyone else. and so we have a collection of markets - an economy - that reflects that belief, a belief many label as 'neoliberalism'; a perversion of classical liberal principles that favors the few over the many in the guise of 'liberty'.
now, it may be true that an appeal to morality could be made on behalf of 99%'ers. there certainly seems to be an imperative there to give our fellow humans equal consideration. but i appeal to practicality. societies that are as lopsided in distribution as ours are prone to revolution. and nations guided by greed are ripe for defeat. if we keep headed in the direction we're heading, it will not end well. and it doesn't have to be this way. why? because again, this is all the result of our doing, and what we are doing is practically, insanely, stupid.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (12/07/16 06:01 AM)
|
finalexplosion
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/16
Posts: 370
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think you're about as bad as hostileuniverse in making up your own facts.
I can't wait to see your evidence for this... 
Perfect example; most women on college campus' are liberal; pro choice and quick to let you know about it. You got "Proud single mom" and "don't need a man." Factually, single moms use enormous amounts of government resources. Why> Cannot keep their legs closed.
Lower IQ; cannot compete in the free market. Needs free money. You got cuck politicians pandering to this madness.
-------------------- The light of wisdom is driving away the darkness. Look at the ground. Now you can see your own shadow. If you are scared by the shadow that follows you, just remember, wherever shadows fall, light is always nearby.
|
Great Scott
Trigger Lover


Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
Loc: Control Grid
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
|
Socialism and societal decay go hand in hand.
--------------------
|
|